The second Holocaust will be different
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Judah Himango wrote:
Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are.
Which is it? Your race/genes or your traditions, culture & beliefs? The 2 are not mutually inclusive.
Judah Himango wrote:
Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome.
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another. Sometimes you have to let go in order to move forward.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another.
Mike, is there any group on earth that has been persecuted as much as Jews have? We've had at least 2 serious attempts at complete extermination of the Jewish race, and anti-Jewish hatred has been popular in Roman Catholic Europe for at least the last 1500 years, as well as Muslim Middle East for the last 1000 years.
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Judah Himango wrote:
That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state.
OK, perhaps not racist, but would Apartheid sit better? However you phrase it, "you cannot live here because you are not of race X" is racist. Pure and simple, no wriggle room. I do seem to remember a little while back a report from the Israeli government calling for Arabs to be "encouraged" to have fewer children, and for limits to be placed on the numbers they would be permitted to have, since in not many years at all, the number of Arabs in Israel would exceed the number of non-Arabs. I would assume that you'd say that was OK for the same reasons?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel.
Whilst I can't speak of other minorities, please....come on...how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
RichardGrimmer wrote:
how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
Richard, if you've got a better solution to stop the thousands of militant Islamic suicide bombers hellbent on destroying Israel by exploding themselves in pizza parlors[^], hotels[^], and public transport buses[^], we're all ears. And before you say, "Give them more of your land!", well, we've been trying that for the last 20 years now, and we're still getting hit. Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing. No, that would be these guys[^].
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It's not so much that Jews don't associate with non-Jews, of course that's not the reality of it. Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are. Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome. Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it. That's all. Anyways, these posts are getting way off topic...
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Judah Himango wrote:
Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it.
Interesting how all through this thread you've referred to Jews and Israelis as "we". Don't you live on the frozen tundra in Minnesota, USA and practice something certainly not Judeaism?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it.
Interesting how all through this thread you've referred to Jews and Israelis as "we". Don't you live on the frozen tundra in Minnesota, USA and practice something certainly not Judeaism?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
By "we", I mean Jews.
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RichardGrimmer wrote:
how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
Richard, if you've got a better solution to stop the thousands of militant Islamic suicide bombers hellbent on destroying Israel by exploding themselves in pizza parlors[^], hotels[^], and public transport buses[^], we're all ears. And before you say, "Give them more of your land!", well, we've been trying that for the last 20 years now, and we're still getting hit. Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing. No, that would be these guys[^].
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Judah - I'm not saying that I have an answer, but herding people like cattle and treating them in a remarkably similar manner to the way that various 'undesirables' (NOT my choice of word - please don't misunderstand me there) were treated 1935-45 in Europe is hardly going to make them think "well this isn't THAT bad, there are some of us bombing them, so it's only fair that we all get interned". The scum perpetrating the violence are NOT being in any way curtailed by the security fence, any more that ID cards in this country are going to prevent terrorism (there are plenty of articles dealing with tunnels literally under the checkpoints that are supposed to stop people entering) The people that are suffering are the average joe public in the occupied territories. The point I was making was not concerned with atrocities, but that you stated that there were equal rights for Arabs in Israel, and I asked how that is so?
Judah Himango wrote:
Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing
I asked if you'd be more comfortable with a racist policy being called something else - ethnic cleansing is not palatable, so what would you call it?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another.
Mike, is there any group on earth that has been persecuted as much as Jews have? We've had at least 2 serious attempts at complete extermination of the Jewish race, and anti-Jewish hatred has been popular in Roman Catholic Europe for at least the last 1500 years, as well as Muslim Middle East for the last 1000 years.
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Been to Africa lately? Modern Jews don't even make the cut...
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Mike, now you're not being intellectually honest. There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
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Judah - I'm not saying that I have an answer, but herding people like cattle and treating them in a remarkably similar manner to the way that various 'undesirables' (NOT my choice of word - please don't misunderstand me there) were treated 1935-45 in Europe is hardly going to make them think "well this isn't THAT bad, there are some of us bombing them, so it's only fair that we all get interned". The scum perpetrating the violence are NOT being in any way curtailed by the security fence, any more that ID cards in this country are going to prevent terrorism (there are plenty of articles dealing with tunnels literally under the checkpoints that are supposed to stop people entering) The people that are suffering are the average joe public in the occupied territories. The point I was making was not concerned with atrocities, but that you stated that there were equal rights for Arabs in Israel, and I asked how that is so?
Judah Himango wrote:
Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing
I asked if you'd be more comfortable with a racist policy being called something else - ethnic cleansing is not palatable, so what would you call it?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
That's the thing -- you say we're treating them like cattle, yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt. How is that taking away someone's rights? Since when does an individual have a right to enter another country without first a security check? Let's not be so disconnected with reality -- in Israel the situation is different from, say, the United Kingdom; Israel is surrounded on all sides by rather hostile Islamic theocracies, several of which swear for its destruction. We're the "little Satan" of Islam. :rolleyes: Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one. But it is better than nothing, and while you've quoted it doesn't work, you haven't shown any citation to back that up. p.s. read my replies to CG, I'm not in favor of the "only allow Jews to immigrate" policy. What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle. This is the whole point of the article originally cited: the West is convinced Israel is evil, as is the Muslim Middle East. Essentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West. Any attack on Israel, even nuclear, will be completely justified by many in the Middle East and in the West. That is, until the enemy starts attacking non-Jews too, but by then it will be too late. History repeats.
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K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Do you honestly believe that will solve it, or even help it, Karl? Well, Israel and its allies *want* a Palestinian state, and we'll probably have one within the next 5 years; you'll soon be proved right or wrong. As someone who has some wisdom in this area, I can tell you it will not solve or even help the problem. It's quite likely it will hurt the problem, as it will give terrorists -- the same ones that hit Israel almost weekly -- a safe haven to retreat into. Karl, the current ruling party of Palestine is Hamas. Hamas doesn't acknowledge that Israel has a *right* to exist, let alone peacefully coexist with a Palestinian state. How will creating a Palestinian state help this? Karl, let me reveal something that ought not to be hidden: many Palestinians, especially the current leadership and its supporters, are not interested in a Palestinian state alone. Those people are interested in removing Israel and the Jews from Israel, replacing it with an Islamic Republic. (citation[^]). In order to establish peace, this group must change its beliefs or be replaced. But instead, the West keeps asking us to make concessions and give up more and more land. This isn't logical or ethical, IMO.
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Mike, now you're not being intellectually honest. There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
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Judah Himango wrote:
There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
I guess I didn't realize it was a contest. :rolleyes: Seriously, - I have never seen a people so hung up on making sure EVERYONE knows that they have been persecuted. It gets old. I'm sure I have relatives that were fed to the lions in Rome but I don't worry about it or even care. I certainly don't blame modern Italians - I married one. ;P Also, it's not like Jews/Israel haven't done their fair share of persecuting over the last 20 centuries.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Judah Himango wrote:
There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
I guess I didn't realize it was a contest. :rolleyes: Seriously, - I have never seen a people so hung up on making sure EVERYONE knows that they have been persecuted. It gets old. I'm sure I have relatives that were fed to the lions in Rome but I don't worry about it or even care. I certainly don't blame modern Italians - I married one. ;P Also, it's not like Jews/Israel haven't done their fair share of persecuting over the last 20 centuries.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Huh? Mike, all I've been trying to say is, we're trying to make sure another Holocaust doesn't happen. We want to preserve our traditions and our country. That's all.
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RichardGrimmer wrote:
how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
Richard, if you've got a better solution to stop the thousands of militant Islamic suicide bombers hellbent on destroying Israel by exploding themselves in pizza parlors[^], hotels[^], and public transport buses[^], we're all ears. And before you say, "Give them more of your land!", well, we've been trying that for the last 20 years now, and we're still getting hit. Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing. No, that would be these guys[^].
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Judah Himango wrote:
"Give them more of your land!",
Who's land? How about the internationally recognized borders. Who's settling in another's landspace? Jewish settlers are still settling in Palestine. And that's not a "Give them more of your land" That's "Let's take some more of your land." I think you have it backwards there. I don't condone violence at all. All sides are wrong there. But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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That's the thing -- you say we're treating them like cattle, yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt. How is that taking away someone's rights? Since when does an individual have a right to enter another country without first a security check? Let's not be so disconnected with reality -- in Israel the situation is different from, say, the United Kingdom; Israel is surrounded on all sides by rather hostile Islamic theocracies, several of which swear for its destruction. We're the "little Satan" of Islam. :rolleyes: Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one. But it is better than nothing, and while you've quoted it doesn't work, you haven't shown any citation to back that up. p.s. read my replies to CG, I'm not in favor of the "only allow Jews to immigrate" policy. What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle. This is the whole point of the article originally cited: the West is convinced Israel is evil, as is the Muslim Middle East. Essentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West. Any attack on Israel, even nuclear, will be completely justified by many in the Middle East and in the West. That is, until the enemy starts attacking non-Jews too, but by then it will be too late. History repeats.
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Judah Himango wrote:
yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt.
Palestine is not Israel. You are within their borders. Occupying their territory and stealing their land. Then building roads that they can't use, and insisting on everyone going through checkpoints to travel within their own domain. That is a police state and really just a prison the size of a small country.
Judah Himango wrote:
Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one.
It wouldn't be as bad if it recognized the true borders. This fence is another land grab. It violates the internationally recognized borders.
Judah Himango wrote:
What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle.
What scares me is that you think that this is an impossibility. Just because Jews experienced racism doesn't mean your above it.
Judah Himango wrote:
ssentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West.
That's total crap. I don't feel bad about Israel or Jewish people. I was engaged to a Jewish woman, and two of my best friends are Jewish. But to deny that what is going on in Palestine and to justify it in the name of the holocaust and then call any call for accountability as anti-semetic is just flat out rediculous. Right now, Israel breaks international law with impunity and resorts to claims of anti-semeticism to back pedal out of responsibility for their own wrong doing.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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By "we", I mean Jews.
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Yeah, I don't understand it either. One of my best friends was part of the Jewish expulsion in the 80s from Russia. He was from the Ukraine, and went first to Italy and then to either Israel or Minnesota. They went to Minnesota, but he always said that the day Mother Israel was in trouble they would fly out at once and fight for her. Just seems a little odd, that a Russian-American would feel like that, but he does. That identity is deep it seems.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Yeah, I don't understand it either. One of my best friends was part of the Jewish expulsion in the 80s from Russia. He was from the Ukraine, and went first to Italy and then to either Israel or Minnesota. They went to Minnesota, but he always said that the day Mother Israel was in trouble they would fly out at once and fight for her. Just seems a little odd, that a Russian-American would feel like that, but he does. That identity is deep it seems.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
That identity is deep it seems.
Very much so, I'd say.
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Judah Himango wrote:
yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt.
Palestine is not Israel. You are within their borders. Occupying their territory and stealing their land. Then building roads that they can't use, and insisting on everyone going through checkpoints to travel within their own domain. That is a police state and really just a prison the size of a small country.
Judah Himango wrote:
Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one.
It wouldn't be as bad if it recognized the true borders. This fence is another land grab. It violates the internationally recognized borders.
Judah Himango wrote:
What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle.
What scares me is that you think that this is an impossibility. Just because Jews experienced racism doesn't mean your above it.
Judah Himango wrote:
ssentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West.
That's total crap. I don't feel bad about Israel or Jewish people. I was engaged to a Jewish woman, and two of my best friends are Jewish. But to deny that what is going on in Palestine and to justify it in the name of the holocaust and then call any call for accountability as anti-semetic is just flat out rediculous. Right now, Israel breaks international law with impunity and resorts to claims of anti-semeticism to back pedal out of responsibility for their own wrong doing.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris, arguing over disputed land won't be very fruitful. I respect your belief that Jews are on Arab land. That's true in some places. The reverse is true in other places. It's also true the state of Israel has inflicted a lot of hurt on Palestinians, yeah I know. The situation is really tough, though, especially so when we get attacked on an almost weekly basis. One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law. Are you talking about UN resolutions? Man, I hope not; it's silly to rely on those things for ethical guidance in how nations should act, given that virtually all of the anti-Israel resolutions are introduced by our good friends who endorse Sharia law, hate Jews, hate Westerners, and call us both Jew and Westerner the "Great Satan". :) These same people at the UN recently drew up a public map of the Middle East for the next 5-10 years with boundaries of the nations there: it was by no coincidence that Israel didn't appear on that map. International law indeed...
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Judah Himango wrote:
"Give them more of your land!",
Who's land? How about the internationally recognized borders. Who's settling in another's landspace? Jewish settlers are still settling in Palestine. And that's not a "Give them more of your land" That's "Let's take some more of your land." I think you have it backwards there. I don't condone violence at all. All sides are wrong there. But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Who's settling in another's landspace?
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
Agreed.
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Who's settling in another's landspace?
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
Agreed.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
But that's the point isn't it! Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land - it was taken from the locals and given to the Jews....so in actual fact, it's not a land give-away, it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Judah Himango wrote:
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
But that's the point isn't it! Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land - it was taken from the locals and given to the Jews....so in actual fact, it's not a land give-away, it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
RichardGrimmer wrote:
it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
Rightful owners? :laugh: Richard, do you know who owned the disputed lands we're talking about -- Gaza strip, Golan Heights, Gush Katif, the West Bank, Jerusalem, hell, all of Israel? Giving it "back to its rightful owners" would mean the Golan Heights belongs to Syria, the West Bank to Jordan, and other pieces to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Is that what you want? Those *were* the previous owners, my friend. I'm glad you brought that up though: let's follow the "rightful owner" route of logic. The oldest owners still in existence today *are* the Jewish people -- we owned the whole damn place for about 1700 years until the Romans destroyed it all, 70 CE. Or maybe you mean the Palestinians own it? We'll, they've only been there since about 1930 when they were booted from Jordan; like "Wiccan", the term "Palestinian" sounds ancient, but is a relatively recent invention! And given there's never been a Palestinian state before, one could argue their presence there is merely occupation of our land. And while on the topic of rightful owners, keep in mind that Israel gained the disputed lands gained in a war in 1967[^], in which Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan simultaneously invaded Israel without provocation. We struck back and expanded our territories for security's sake. The Golan Heights, for example, is a vantage point that allows us to intercept missiles from Lebanon and Syria (this came in handy during that last fight with Hezbollah).
RichardGrimmer wrote:
Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land
:wtf: Are you saying Jews never lived in Israel, or never had a nation there? :~
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Chris, arguing over disputed land won't be very fruitful. I respect your belief that Jews are on Arab land. That's true in some places. The reverse is true in other places. It's also true the state of Israel has inflicted a lot of hurt on Palestinians, yeah I know. The situation is really tough, though, especially so when we get attacked on an almost weekly basis. One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law. Are you talking about UN resolutions? Man, I hope not; it's silly to rely on those things for ethical guidance in how nations should act, given that virtually all of the anti-Israel resolutions are introduced by our good friends who endorse Sharia law, hate Jews, hate Westerners, and call us both Jew and Westerner the "Great Satan". :) These same people at the UN recently drew up a public map of the Middle East for the next 5-10 years with boundaries of the nations there: it was by no coincidence that Israel didn't appear on that map. International law indeed...
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Judah Himango wrote:
One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law
Nah. No faith in that. But, the borders agreed to must be adhered to. If you (Israel) decide to act on your own and decide which borders to recognize in the face of a previous agreement, then you lose credibility in your arguments.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder