The second Holocaust will be different
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Judah Himango wrote:
state of Israel is racist because of it's not multicultural like the rest of the world
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's not as if mass extermination of Jews has never been attempted.
Sure, I can see how they'd be more likely to worry, than, say, I would be. Something that horrible has to leave a multi generational scar.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Anti-ethnic/anti-national feelings are commonly tarred in the US as being racist even though it' not an appropriate usage of the term. I've seen the same phrasing in net arguments from people in Europe, but I'm not sure if that's the intended meaning or a translation artifact.
-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.
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digital man wrote:
how do you propose that will happen?
How did that happen for Israel?
digital man wrote:
How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it?
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
digital man wrote:
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
digital man wrote:
It oppresses no one
No kidding [^].
K(arl) wrote:
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
Arafat was offered everything he asked for and he still got up and walked away.
K(arl) wrote:
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
So if you're not sure, don't say. I don't think they are: at least you can support who you want in Israel without the risk of being assasinated by the Syrians cos they don't like your 'democracy'.
K(arl) wrote:
No kidding [^].
Impasse: I know that Israel does not oppress anyone. You don't.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, it's not a religious thing ?
It's not. Certainly there is the correlation that most Jews practice Judaism, but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity. Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
Christian Graus wrote:
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
No, as it stands currently, it's still tradition and Jewish authority that confirms it. For example, my brother Aaron is moving to Israel; he's had to get the signature of some Jewish rabbis in the United States stating that he is Jewish in order for the state of Israel to allow him to move and become a citizen there.
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Judah Himango wrote:
but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity.
I'll probably never understand why so many people cling to their race as some kind of separator or identifier. I'm mostly of Scottish/Irish descent but feel no kinship with Scotland, Ireland or their citizens. I don't make any effort to associate or interact "specially" with others of my race. I have friends and family... PERIOD. My race (and their race) is insignificant. No?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Do you honestly believe that will solve it, or even help it, Karl? Well, Israel and its allies *want* a Palestinian state, and we'll probably have one within the next 5 years; you'll soon be proved right or wrong. As someone who has some wisdom in this area, I can tell you it will not solve or even help the problem. It's quite likely it will hurt the problem, as it will give terrorists -- the same ones that hit Israel almost weekly -- a safe haven to retreat into. Karl, the current ruling party of Palestine is Hamas. Hamas doesn't acknowledge that Israel has a *right* to exist, let alone peacefully coexist with a Palestinian state. How will creating a Palestinian state help this? Karl, let me reveal something that ought not to be hidden: many Palestinians, especially the current leadership and its supporters, are not interested in a Palestinian state alone. Those people are interested in removing Israel and the Jews from Israel, replacing it with an Islamic Republic. (citation[^]). In order to establish peace, this group must change its beliefs or be replaced. But instead, the West keeps asking us to make concessions and give up more and more land. This isn't logical or ethical, IMO.
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Judah Himango wrote:
but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity.
I'll probably never understand why so many people cling to their race as some kind of separator or identifier. I'm mostly of Scottish/Irish descent but feel no kinship with Scotland, Ireland or their citizens. I don't make any effort to associate or interact "specially" with others of my race. I have friends and family... PERIOD. My race (and their race) is insignificant. No?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
It's not so much that Jews don't associate with non-Jews, of course that's not the reality of it. Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are. Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome. Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it. That's all. Anyways, these posts are getting way off topic...
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Judah Himango wrote:
you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years.
I daresay thats the truth all the world over - just replace "religious Palestinian Arabs" with other group names.
Shreekar
IIRC, Arabs have unique and unusually high birth rates, in both Israel and abroad. But yes, no birth control means lots of kids at any rate. :)
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digital man wrote:
There are, as you are well aware, many Israeli Arabs who have the full rights of citizenship.
Yeah, of course I know that. I mean, I live close by, and all....... I really didn't know, and Judah said above that you need to be racially Jewish, so I was asking about it. I was surprised, but he said it, and seemed in a better place to know.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
It's kind of an either/or thing. You can be racially jewish and be allowed to become a citizen, or if you are a practicing jew. Say your parents were Catholic but you converted to being Jewish. Proof of a bat mitzvah, mikvah (special ritual bath) and a Hebrew naming make you a person who is Jewish by religion, but not necessarily ethnically.
_________________________________________________________________________________ Some buildings don't have a Floor 13 because of superstition...yet every airport has a gate C-4.
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That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
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Judah Himango wrote:
That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state.
OK, perhaps not racist, but would Apartheid sit better? However you phrase it, "you cannot live here because you are not of race X" is racist. Pure and simple, no wriggle room. I do seem to remember a little while back a report from the Israeli government calling for Arabs to be "encouraged" to have fewer children, and for limits to be placed on the numbers they would be permitted to have, since in not many years at all, the number of Arabs in Israel would exceed the number of non-Arabs. I would assume that you'd say that was OK for the same reasons?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel.
Whilst I can't speak of other minorities, please....come on...how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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It's not so much that Jews don't associate with non-Jews, of course that's not the reality of it. Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are. Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome. Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it. That's all. Anyways, these posts are getting way off topic...
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Judah Himango wrote:
Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are.
Which is it? Your race/genes or your traditions, culture & beliefs? The 2 are not mutually inclusive.
Judah Himango wrote:
Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome.
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another. Sometimes you have to let go in order to move forward.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Judah Himango wrote:
Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are.
Which is it? Your race/genes or your traditions, culture & beliefs? The 2 are not mutually inclusive.
Judah Himango wrote:
Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome.
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another. Sometimes you have to let go in order to move forward.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another.
Mike, is there any group on earth that has been persecuted as much as Jews have? We've had at least 2 serious attempts at complete extermination of the Jewish race, and anti-Jewish hatred has been popular in Roman Catholic Europe for at least the last 1500 years, as well as Muslim Middle East for the last 1000 years.
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Judah Himango wrote:
That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state.
OK, perhaps not racist, but would Apartheid sit better? However you phrase it, "you cannot live here because you are not of race X" is racist. Pure and simple, no wriggle room. I do seem to remember a little while back a report from the Israeli government calling for Arabs to be "encouraged" to have fewer children, and for limits to be placed on the numbers they would be permitted to have, since in not many years at all, the number of Arabs in Israel would exceed the number of non-Arabs. I would assume that you'd say that was OK for the same reasons?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel.
Whilst I can't speak of other minorities, please....come on...how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
RichardGrimmer wrote:
how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
Richard, if you've got a better solution to stop the thousands of militant Islamic suicide bombers hellbent on destroying Israel by exploding themselves in pizza parlors[^], hotels[^], and public transport buses[^], we're all ears. And before you say, "Give them more of your land!", well, we've been trying that for the last 20 years now, and we're still getting hit. Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing. No, that would be these guys[^].
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It's not so much that Jews don't associate with non-Jews, of course that's not the reality of it. Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are. Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome. Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it. That's all. Anyways, these posts are getting way off topic...
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Judah Himango wrote:
Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it.
Interesting how all through this thread you've referred to Jews and Israelis as "we". Don't you live on the frozen tundra in Minnesota, USA and practice something certainly not Judeaism?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it.
Interesting how all through this thread you've referred to Jews and Israelis as "we". Don't you live on the frozen tundra in Minnesota, USA and practice something certainly not Judeaism?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
By "we", I mean Jews.
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RichardGrimmer wrote:
how can there be equal rights for Arabs when they're being slowly but surely fenced in, and even require permits to move?
Richard, if you've got a better solution to stop the thousands of militant Islamic suicide bombers hellbent on destroying Israel by exploding themselves in pizza parlors[^], hotels[^], and public transport buses[^], we're all ears. And before you say, "Give them more of your land!", well, we've been trying that for the last 20 years now, and we're still getting hit. Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing. No, that would be these guys[^].
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Judah - I'm not saying that I have an answer, but herding people like cattle and treating them in a remarkably similar manner to the way that various 'undesirables' (NOT my choice of word - please don't misunderstand me there) were treated 1935-45 in Europe is hardly going to make them think "well this isn't THAT bad, there are some of us bombing them, so it's only fair that we all get interned". The scum perpetrating the violence are NOT being in any way curtailed by the security fence, any more that ID cards in this country are going to prevent terrorism (there are plenty of articles dealing with tunnels literally under the checkpoints that are supposed to stop people entering) The people that are suffering are the average joe public in the occupied territories. The point I was making was not concerned with atrocities, but that you stated that there were equal rights for Arabs in Israel, and I asked how that is so?
Judah Himango wrote:
Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing
I asked if you'd be more comfortable with a racist policy being called something else - ethnic cleansing is not palatable, so what would you call it?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Bah... every group on Earth has been persecuted at some point or another.
Mike, is there any group on earth that has been persecuted as much as Jews have? We've had at least 2 serious attempts at complete extermination of the Jewish race, and anti-Jewish hatred has been popular in Roman Catholic Europe for at least the last 1500 years, as well as Muslim Middle East for the last 1000 years.
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Been to Africa lately? Modern Jews don't even make the cut...
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Mike, now you're not being intellectually honest. There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
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Judah - I'm not saying that I have an answer, but herding people like cattle and treating them in a remarkably similar manner to the way that various 'undesirables' (NOT my choice of word - please don't misunderstand me there) were treated 1935-45 in Europe is hardly going to make them think "well this isn't THAT bad, there are some of us bombing them, so it's only fair that we all get interned". The scum perpetrating the violence are NOT being in any way curtailed by the security fence, any more that ID cards in this country are going to prevent terrorism (there are plenty of articles dealing with tunnels literally under the checkpoints that are supposed to stop people entering) The people that are suffering are the average joe public in the occupied territories. The point I was making was not concerned with atrocities, but that you stated that there were equal rights for Arabs in Israel, and I asked how that is so?
Judah Himango wrote:
Richard, please remember that we aren't the guys desiring or carrying out ethnic cleansing
I asked if you'd be more comfortable with a racist policy being called something else - ethnic cleansing is not palatable, so what would you call it?
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
That's the thing -- you say we're treating them like cattle, yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt. How is that taking away someone's rights? Since when does an individual have a right to enter another country without first a security check? Let's not be so disconnected with reality -- in Israel the situation is different from, say, the United Kingdom; Israel is surrounded on all sides by rather hostile Islamic theocracies, several of which swear for its destruction. We're the "little Satan" of Islam. :rolleyes: Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one. But it is better than nothing, and while you've quoted it doesn't work, you haven't shown any citation to back that up. p.s. read my replies to CG, I'm not in favor of the "only allow Jews to immigrate" policy. What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle. This is the whole point of the article originally cited: the West is convinced Israel is evil, as is the Muslim Middle East. Essentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West. Any attack on Israel, even nuclear, will be completely justified by many in the Middle East and in the West. That is, until the enemy starts attacking non-Jews too, but by then it will be too late. History repeats.
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K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Do you honestly believe that will solve it, or even help it, Karl? Well, Israel and its allies *want* a Palestinian state, and we'll probably have one within the next 5 years; you'll soon be proved right or wrong. As someone who has some wisdom in this area, I can tell you it will not solve or even help the problem. It's quite likely it will hurt the problem, as it will give terrorists -- the same ones that hit Israel almost weekly -- a safe haven to retreat into. Karl, the current ruling party of Palestine is Hamas. Hamas doesn't acknowledge that Israel has a *right* to exist, let alone peacefully coexist with a Palestinian state. How will creating a Palestinian state help this? Karl, let me reveal something that ought not to be hidden: many Palestinians, especially the current leadership and its supporters, are not interested in a Palestinian state alone. Those people are interested in removing Israel and the Jews from Israel, replacing it with an Islamic Republic. (citation[^]). In order to establish peace, this group must change its beliefs or be replaced. But instead, the West keeps asking us to make concessions and give up more and more land. This isn't logical or ethical, IMO.
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Mike, now you're not being intellectually honest. There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
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Judah Himango wrote:
There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
I guess I didn't realize it was a contest. :rolleyes: Seriously, - I have never seen a people so hung up on making sure EVERYONE knows that they have been persecuted. It gets old. I'm sure I have relatives that were fed to the lions in Rome but I don't worry about it or even care. I certainly don't blame modern Italians - I married one. ;P Also, it's not like Jews/Israel haven't done their fair share of persecuting over the last 20 centuries.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Judah Himango wrote:
There is oppression in Africa for sure, but not for the last 2000 some odd years for the same people group.
I guess I didn't realize it was a contest. :rolleyes: Seriously, - I have never seen a people so hung up on making sure EVERYONE knows that they have been persecuted. It gets old. I'm sure I have relatives that were fed to the lions in Rome but I don't worry about it or even care. I certainly don't blame modern Italians - I married one. ;P Also, it's not like Jews/Israel haven't done their fair share of persecuting over the last 20 centuries.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Huh? Mike, all I've been trying to say is, we're trying to make sure another Holocaust doesn't happen. We want to preserve our traditions and our country. That's all.
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