The second Holocaust will be different
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OK, well, if that's the case, isn't it reasonable to describe that policy as racist ? I mean, it kind of is, by definition, right ? You can argue if they are allowed to be racist or not, based on the past, or whatever, and I'm not commenting on that. But, a policy that says 'only this race of people can live here', is, by defintion, racist.
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That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
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That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
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Judah Himango wrote:
This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
thats new..never heard that..
ik pair past mein,te dooja pair future mein.tabhi to aaj pe moot rahe hain.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
Another thoughtful and valued contribution by our resident college dropout. :rolleyes: If you want to have a playground fight with Tim, take it offline.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
I didn't respond to your threat about mentioning you in my signature, I'm certainly not going to respond as you want with your tantrums. Get over it, little boy.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
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To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
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Judah Himango wrote:
you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years.
I daresay thats the truth all the world over - just replace "religious Palestinian Arabs" with other group names.
Shreekar
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So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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digital man wrote:
There are, as you are well aware, many Israeli Arabs who have the full rights of citizenship.
Yeah, of course I know that. I mean, I live close by, and all....... I really didn't know, and Judah said above that you need to be racially Jewish, so I was asking about it. I was surprised, but he said it, and seemed in a better place to know.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Benny Morris, a professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University, writes the next Holocaust will be different[^]. The article isn't calling for war, but rather, how to avoid it and keep the nation of Israel preserved in the face of anti-Jewish sentiment in the 20-some Islamic theocracies surrounding Israel. I found this piece particularly interesting:
This dilemma had long ago been accurately defined by a wise general: Israel's nuclear armory is unusable. It can only be used too early or too late. There will never be a "right" time. Use it "too early," meaning before Iran acquires similar weapons, and Israel will be cast in the role of international pariah, a target of universal Muslim assault, without a friend in the world; "too late" means after the Iranians have struck. What purpose would that serve?
And regarding the Nazi-esque demonization of Jews,
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed." And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms.
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Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
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Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Oh and how do you propose that will happen? How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it? Oh, wait, I know... hell, frozen and over spring to mind.
K(arl) wrote:
Oh, because it is not?
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics, etc. It oppresses no one but will show no mercy to murdering, terrorist scum. Oh, you mean that is oppressive?
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K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Oh and how do you propose that will happen? How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it? Oh, wait, I know... hell, frozen and over spring to mind.
K(arl) wrote:
Oh, because it is not?
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics, etc. It oppresses no one but will show no mercy to murdering, terrorist scum. Oh, you mean that is oppressive?
digital man wrote:
how do you propose that will happen?
How did that happen for Israel?
digital man wrote:
How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it?
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
digital man wrote:
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
digital man wrote:
It oppresses no one
No kidding [^].
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Judah Himango wrote:
state of Israel is racist because of it's not multicultural like the rest of the world
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's not as if mass extermination of Jews has never been attempted.
Sure, I can see how they'd be more likely to worry, than, say, I would be. Something that horrible has to leave a multi generational scar.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Anti-ethnic/anti-national feelings are commonly tarred in the US as being racist even though it' not an appropriate usage of the term. I've seen the same phrasing in net arguments from people in Europe, but I'm not sure if that's the intended meaning or a translation artifact.
-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.
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digital man wrote:
how do you propose that will happen?
How did that happen for Israel?
digital man wrote:
How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it?
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
digital man wrote:
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
digital man wrote:
It oppresses no one
No kidding [^].
K(arl) wrote:
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
Arafat was offered everything he asked for and he still got up and walked away.
K(arl) wrote:
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
So if you're not sure, don't say. I don't think they are: at least you can support who you want in Israel without the risk of being assasinated by the Syrians cos they don't like your 'democracy'.
K(arl) wrote:
No kidding [^].
Impasse: I know that Israel does not oppress anyone. You don't.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, it's not a religious thing ?
It's not. Certainly there is the correlation that most Jews practice Judaism, but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity. Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
Christian Graus wrote:
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
No, as it stands currently, it's still tradition and Jewish authority that confirms it. For example, my brother Aaron is moving to Israel; he's had to get the signature of some Jewish rabbis in the United States stating that he is Jewish in order for the state of Israel to allow him to move and become a citizen there.
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Judah Himango wrote:
but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity.
I'll probably never understand why so many people cling to their race as some kind of separator or identifier. I'm mostly of Scottish/Irish descent but feel no kinship with Scotland, Ireland or their citizens. I don't make any effort to associate or interact "specially" with others of my race. I have friends and family... PERIOD. My race (and their race) is insignificant. No?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Do you honestly believe that will solve it, or even help it, Karl? Well, Israel and its allies *want* a Palestinian state, and we'll probably have one within the next 5 years; you'll soon be proved right or wrong. As someone who has some wisdom in this area, I can tell you it will not solve or even help the problem. It's quite likely it will hurt the problem, as it will give terrorists -- the same ones that hit Israel almost weekly -- a safe haven to retreat into. Karl, the current ruling party of Palestine is Hamas. Hamas doesn't acknowledge that Israel has a *right* to exist, let alone peacefully coexist with a Palestinian state. How will creating a Palestinian state help this? Karl, let me reveal something that ought not to be hidden: many Palestinians, especially the current leadership and its supporters, are not interested in a Palestinian state alone. Those people are interested in removing Israel and the Jews from Israel, replacing it with an Islamic Republic. (citation[^]). In order to establish peace, this group must change its beliefs or be replaced. But instead, the West keeps asking us to make concessions and give up more and more land. This isn't logical or ethical, IMO.
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Judah Himango wrote:
but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity.
I'll probably never understand why so many people cling to their race as some kind of separator or identifier. I'm mostly of Scottish/Irish descent but feel no kinship with Scotland, Ireland or their citizens. I don't make any effort to associate or interact "specially" with others of my race. I have friends and family... PERIOD. My race (and their race) is insignificant. No?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
It's not so much that Jews don't associate with non-Jews, of course that's not the reality of it. Rather, we want to preserve our traditions and culture and beliefs. These things make us what we are. Unlike the Irish or Scottish, Jews have been persecuted for about the last 2000 years, since our country was destroyed about 2000 years ago in 70 CE by Rome. Now that we actually have our country back, we wish to keep it. That's all. Anyways, these posts are getting way off topic...
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