The second Holocaust will be different
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sounds like hysteria to me, I've never heard anyone say this.
Next time you're in the US, listen to the radio a bit more. Of course, you'll also hear plenty of "Israel must be preserved as a bulwark against the radical Muslim in the Middle East", depending on the station and program. There's really no objectivity, because to be objective you'd have to face the fact that, trapped in the box build from all the people just trying to live, there are two scared animals, and it doesn't really matter whether they kill each other first, or shred the box first, the end result can only be blood and destruction. The recent conflict with Lebanon produced some really pitiful coverage, alternating between the sob stories of Israeli and Lebanese civilians, while Hezbollah and the Israeli army stabbed ineffectually at each other. The final verdict seemed to be that, while both parties were willing to sacrifice massive numbers of Lebanese in pursuit of their ill-defined goals, Israel was somehow more at fault. Because they should have been able to avoid it. Or something. Honestly, i mostly stopped paying attention after hearing reports of Hezbollah being lauded as saviors for coming in to rebuild demolished towns. I don't see any way that this can end well...
OK, so the comment is US centric ? Still, I've spent time in the US, and I've still not heard it. I certainly don't think it's all pervasive, but rather, as you said, that there are places you can hear it. That's hardly 'an entire generation', even just of Americans.
Shog9 wrote:
I don't see any way that this can end well...
Nor I.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Judah Himango wrote:
state of Israel is racist because of it's not multicultural like the rest of the world
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's not as if mass extermination of Jews has never been attempted.
Sure, I can see how they'd be more likely to worry, than, say, I would be. Something that horrible has to leave a multi generational scar.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Jews are not a race, not today.
Sure we are. Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew") and Benjamin. Both Judah and Benjamin were sons of Jacob, who was later renamed Israel. IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking). I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the religion most Jews practice; for example, most modern Israeli citizens are secular, yet they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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OK, so the comment is US centric ? Still, I've spent time in the US, and I've still not heard it. I certainly don't think it's all pervasive, but rather, as you said, that there are places you can hear it. That's hardly 'an entire generation', even just of Americans.
Shog9 wrote:
I don't see any way that this can end well...
Nor I.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
That's hardly 'an entire generation', even just of Americans.
Yeah, that's true, it would've been more accurate to there have been murmurs of such things in the West. Obviously, the correlation between anti-Jewish sentiment among Muslims and among the secular West isn't a parallel. IMO, the United States has treated Jews quite well, relatively speaking.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jews are not a race, not today.
Sure we are. Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew") and Benjamin. Both Judah and Benjamin were sons of Jacob, who was later renamed Israel. IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking). I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the religion most Jews practice; for example, most modern Israeli citizens are secular, yet they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew")
Yeah, I know all this.
Judah Himango wrote:
I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism.
So, it's not a religious thing ? I thought it was, I thought that's why Jews of every race are in Israel ?
Judah Himango wrote:
they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
I think the existence of Israel, makes 'Jewish' ( well, Israeli would be better, but, of course, in terms of blood lines, you're dealing with 1/6 of ancient Israel ), a terminology that has too many meanings to be useful without further explanation.
Judah Himango wrote:
IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking).
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Judah Himango wrote:
Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew")
Yeah, I know all this.
Judah Himango wrote:
I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism.
So, it's not a religious thing ? I thought it was, I thought that's why Jews of every race are in Israel ?
Judah Himango wrote:
they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
I think the existence of Israel, makes 'Jewish' ( well, Israeli would be better, but, of course, in terms of blood lines, you're dealing with 1/6 of ancient Israel ), a terminology that has too many meanings to be useful without further explanation.
Judah Himango wrote:
IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking).
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
So, it's not a religious thing ?
It's not. Certainly there is the correlation that most Jews practice Judaism, but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity. Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
Christian Graus wrote:
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
No, as it stands currently, it's still tradition and Jewish authority that confirms it. For example, my brother Aaron is moving to Israel; he's had to get the signature of some Jewish rabbis in the United States stating that he is Jewish in order for the state of Israel to allow him to move and become a citizen there.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, it's not a religious thing ?
It's not. Certainly there is the correlation that most Jews practice Judaism, but being Jewish is ultimately a racial identity. Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
Christian Graus wrote:
Interesting.... Does that mean some sort of test is required for someone to move to Israel ?
No, as it stands currently, it's still tradition and Jewish authority that confirms it. For example, my brother Aaron is moving to Israel; he's had to get the signature of some Jewish rabbis in the United States stating that he is Jewish in order for the state of Israel to allow him to move and become a citizen there.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
OK, so if I am a religious Jew, I can visit, but I have to prove that I'm regarded as a racial Jew, to become a citizen ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Judah Himango wrote:
Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
OK, so if I am a religious Jew, I can visit, but I have to prove that I'm regarded as a racial Jew, to become a citizen ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Yes, that's my understanding.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes, that's my understanding.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
OK, well, if that's the case, isn't it reasonable to describe that policy as racist ? I mean, it kind of is, by definition, right ? You can argue if they are allowed to be racist or not, based on the past, or whatever, and I'm not commenting on that. But, a policy that says 'only this race of people can live here', is, by defintion, racist.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jews are not a race, not today.
Sure we are. Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew") and Benjamin. Both Judah and Benjamin were sons of Jacob, who was later renamed Israel. IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking). I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the religion most Jews practice; for example, most modern Israeli citizens are secular, yet they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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OK, well, if that's the case, isn't it reasonable to describe that policy as racist ? I mean, it kind of is, by definition, right ? You can argue if they are allowed to be racist or not, based on the past, or whatever, and I'm not commenting on that. But, a policy that says 'only this race of people can live here', is, by defintion, racist.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
thats new..never heard that..
ik pair past mein,te dooja pair future mein.tabhi to aaj pe moot rahe hain.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
Another thoughtful and valued contribution by our resident college dropout. :rolleyes: If you want to have a playground fight with Tim, take it offline.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
I didn't respond to your threat about mentioning you in my signature, I'm certainly not going to respond as you want with your tantrums. Get over it, little boy.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
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To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years.
I daresay thats the truth all the world over - just replace "religious Palestinian Arabs" with other group names.
Shreekar
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So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert