The second Holocaust will be different
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Judah Himango wrote:
Why Jews of all nationalities make aliyah to Israel is because it is historically the only Jewish homeland in existence.
OK, so if I am a religious Jew, I can visit, but I have to prove that I'm regarded as a racial Jew, to become a citizen ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Yes, that's my understanding.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes, that's my understanding.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
OK, well, if that's the case, isn't it reasonable to describe that policy as racist ? I mean, it kind of is, by definition, right ? You can argue if they are allowed to be racist or not, based on the past, or whatever, and I'm not commenting on that. But, a policy that says 'only this race of people can live here', is, by defintion, racist.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jews are not a race, not today.
Sure we are. Jews are descendants of Judah (hence the name "Jew", derived from Hebrew Yehuda and Arabic Yehud, from which we get the German "Juden" and the English "Jew") and Benjamin. Both Judah and Benjamin were sons of Jacob, who was later renamed Israel. IIRC, there was a recent National Geographic article talking about a particular Y-chromosome common in all Jewish Levites, using it as a litmus test to see if someone was, in fact, a Jewish Levite (racially speaking). I think a lot of people confuse "Jew" with the religion of Judaism. Being Jewish has nothing to do with the religion most Jews practice; for example, most modern Israeli citizens are secular, yet they're certainly still Jewish nonetheless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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OK, well, if that's the case, isn't it reasonable to describe that policy as racist ? I mean, it kind of is, by definition, right ? You can argue if they are allowed to be racist or not, based on the past, or whatever, and I'm not commenting on that. But, a policy that says 'only this race of people can live here', is, by defintion, racist.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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That's a reasonable question, and I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel. (It's especially silly given that Jews do not comprise all of Israel, as you pointed out earlier). I will say that racism typically implies superiority or hatred of other races. That isn't the case here. Instead, the policy of only allowing Jews to gain citizenship in Israel is one of preservation for the Jewish race and Jewish state. The situation in Israel -- a westernized, rather secular democracy surrounded on all sides by hostile Islamic theocracies -- requires an approach different from most Western nations. This said, it should also be stated that Israel gives equal rights to Armenians, Arabs, and other minorities living in Israel. Some of the parties, Palestinian Arabs for example, even have representation in our congress, the Knesset.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
most modern Israeli citizens are secular
But for how much longer? There a the "ultra religious" in Israel who stir up a lot of the problems. They breed like there's no tomorrow, are exempt from military service, and (I believe) pay no taxes. Eventually, they'll be the majority.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
thats new..never heard that..
ik pair past mein,te dooja pair future mein.tabhi to aaj pe moot rahe hain.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
Another thoughtful and valued contribution by our resident college dropout. :rolleyes: If you want to have a playground fight with Tim, take it offline.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Captain See Sharp wrote:
Shut up.
I didn't respond to your threat about mentioning you in my signature, I'm certainly not going to respond as you want with your tantrums. Get over it, little boy.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not defending that choice to only allow Jews to gain citizenship in Israel.
I'm not really attacking, either. Just exploring :-)
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
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To get the right of return you must be demonstrably jewish. However, if you want to emigrate there you can do so. You won't have the right to emigrate, that's all and will have to satisfy other criteria. It's the same as being, say, the son of an American citizen. Provided you satisfy some trivial criteria you have the right to a green card and will go to the top of the list, pushing other applicants down in the pile. Same as in the UK if you are descended from a UK citizen you have the right to abode. Otherwise just slip in quietly from France and we'll give you a house, a car, medicine and loads of money. Really, we will.
So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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I doubt it; the majority will be Palestinian Arabs. If you look at census reports from Israel, you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years. This is why much of the Israeli government as well as it's allies (US, UK) are in support of a separate Palestinian state: it's ultimate purpose is to keep Israel Jewish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
you'll see religious Palestinian Arabs -- folks who don't support birth control in any form -- as the fastest growing people group, becoming the majority in as little as 10-20 years.
I daresay thats the truth all the world over - just replace "religious Palestinian Arabs" with other group names.
Shreekar
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So, I can move to Israel to live ? In other words, Israel is not made up of peopel who are racially Jewish, as Judah suggested above ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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digital man wrote:
There are, as you are well aware, many Israeli Arabs who have the full rights of citizenship.
Yeah, of course I know that. I mean, I live close by, and all....... I really didn't know, and Judah said above that you need to be racially Jewish, so I was asking about it. I was surprised, but he said it, and seemed in a better place to know.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Benny Morris, a professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University, writes the next Holocaust will be different[^]. The article isn't calling for war, but rather, how to avoid it and keep the nation of Israel preserved in the face of anti-Jewish sentiment in the 20-some Islamic theocracies surrounding Israel. I found this piece particularly interesting:
This dilemma had long ago been accurately defined by a wise general: Israel's nuclear armory is unusable. It can only be used too early or too late. There will never be a "right" time. Use it "too early," meaning before Iran acquires similar weapons, and Israel will be cast in the role of international pariah, a target of universal Muslim assault, without a friend in the world; "too late" means after the Iranians have struck. What purpose would that serve?
And regarding the Nazi-esque demonization of Jews,
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed." And Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state" and "Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous." Generations of Muslims and at least a generation of Westerners have been brought up on these catechisms.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Check out this cutie The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
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Judah Himango wrote:
What purpose would that serve?
Nuclear deterrence[^]. That's strange that the author didn't get there is no other use for nuclear weapons.
Judah Himango wrote:
As with the first, the second holocaust will have been preceded by decades of preparation of hearts and minds, by Iranian and Arab leaders, Western intellectuals and media outlets. Muslims the world over have been taught: "The Zionists/Jews are the embodiment of evil" and "Israel must be destroyed."
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Judah Himango wrote:
Westeners, more subtly, were instructed: "Israel is a racist oppressor state"
Oh, because it is not?
Judah Himango wrote:
Israel, in this age of multiculturalism, is an anachronism and superfluous
Never heard that one before.
K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Oh and how do you propose that will happen? How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it? Oh, wait, I know... hell, frozen and over spring to mind.
K(arl) wrote:
Oh, because it is not?
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics, etc. It oppresses no one but will show no mercy to murdering, terrorist scum. Oh, you mean that is oppressive?
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K(arl) wrote:
So Israel must counter these attacks, by taking appropriate steps to remove the roots of hatred towards Israel, as giving a State for the Palestinians.
Oh and how do you propose that will happen? How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it? Oh, wait, I know... hell, frozen and over spring to mind.
K(arl) wrote:
Oh, because it is not?
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics, etc. It oppresses no one but will show no mercy to murdering, terrorist scum. Oh, you mean that is oppressive?
digital man wrote:
how do you propose that will happen?
How did that happen for Israel?
digital man wrote:
How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it?
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
digital man wrote:
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
digital man wrote:
It oppresses no one
No kidding [^].
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Judah Himango wrote:
state of Israel is racist because of it's not multicultural like the rest of the world
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's not as if mass extermination of Jews has never been attempted.
Sure, I can see how they'd be more likely to worry, than, say, I would be. Something that horrible has to leave a multi generational scar.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
But how can that be ? Jews are not a race, not today.
Anti-ethnic/anti-national feelings are commonly tarred in the US as being racist even though it' not an appropriate usage of the term. I've seen the same phrasing in net arguments from people in Europe, but I'm not sure if that's the intended meaning or a translation artifact.
-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.
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digital man wrote:
how do you propose that will happen?
How did that happen for Israel?
digital man wrote:
How many times do Israel have to offer the Palestinians what they want before they'll actually take it?
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
digital man wrote:
It's the only country in the middle east with complete freedom or religion, belief, politics
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
digital man wrote:
It oppresses no one
No kidding [^].
K(arl) wrote:
One, if the proposal is negociated and fair.
Arafat was offered everything he asked for and he still got up and walked away.
K(arl) wrote:
I'm not sure Lebanon is less democratic than Israel.
So if you're not sure, don't say. I don't think they are: at least you can support who you want in Israel without the risk of being assasinated by the Syrians cos they don't like your 'democracy'.
K(arl) wrote:
No kidding [^].
Impasse: I know that Israel does not oppress anyone. You don't.