Union for Programmers
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Tim Smith wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH The lounge can be a real page-turner at times. - Jason (SonorkID 100.611) "I just recieved an email from myself but I didn't send it ?" - Colin Davies, Sonork conference
My wit even amuses me. Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
Bill SerGio wrote: Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep Is there any way to stop taking crap from Sergio? Even if I was upset with my situation the last place I'd go for help is to somebody like this guy.
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
$100k? If only. The games industry would fall apart overnight if us games programmers demanded that :( -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Bill SerGio wrote: Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep Is there any way to stop taking crap from Sergio? Even if I was upset with my situation the last place I'd go for help is to somebody like this guy.
Unless you needed an infomercial :-D -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
You're not making $100,000 yet?
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
Bill SerGio wrote: stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep Oh dear Bill, ewe have been away for far too long... :rolleyes: ____________________ David Wulff hu·mour Pronunciation Key (hymr) n. & v. Chiefly British Dave's Code Project Screensaver and Wallpaper page.
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
Fergetaboutit. I could'nt take the pay cut. Any decent programmer with any cojones of his own is either self employeed or doing contract jobs anyway. The active word here is decent. You would be suprised at the number of people who think they are programmers but have no idea what data structures, alogrithms, state machines, etc.. are. They think drag and drop GUI's are the hot thing to do or will spend 2 weeks writing a new control to do something stupid like different color highlights or some such.. However ask the same person to parse in a delimited text file into records and then sort and eliminate duplicates and all you get is a blank stare. Richard ( Never trust anyone under 40 ) Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Fergetaboutit. I could'nt take the pay cut. Any decent programmer with any cojones of his own is either self employeed or doing contract jobs anyway. The active word here is decent. You would be suprised at the number of people who think they are programmers but have no idea what data structures, alogrithms, state machines, etc.. are. They think drag and drop GUI's are the hot thing to do or will spend 2 weeks writing a new control to do something stupid like different color highlights or some such.. However ask the same person to parse in a delimited text file into records and then sort and eliminate duplicates and all you get is a blank stare. Richard ( Never trust anyone under 40 ) Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: ( Never trust anyone under 40 :laugh: Considering that designing for Windows users consists of spending 6% of your time doing the functional program and the rest dorking around with all the cutesy graphics stuff, those "other" programmers could be considered 94% expert!
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
Bill SerGio wrote: Programmers are grossly under paid You have somewhat of a point here. Those that just program probably don't get paid a heck of a lot. It is usually those that do much more than program that achieve the significant rewards. Bill SerGio wrote: join the Teamsters My previous experiences with this crowd has never done anything to help fill my pocket. You remind me of the starving artists. Chris
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Fergetaboutit. I could'nt take the pay cut. Any decent programmer with any cojones of his own is either self employeed or doing contract jobs anyway. The active word here is decent. You would be suprised at the number of people who think they are programmers but have no idea what data structures, alogrithms, state machines, etc.. are. They think drag and drop GUI's are the hot thing to do or will spend 2 weeks writing a new control to do something stupid like different color highlights or some such.. However ask the same person to parse in a delimited text file into records and then sort and eliminate duplicates and all you get is a blank stare. Richard ( Never trust anyone under 40 ) Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: ( Never trust anyone under 40 ) Glad I'm near the big 50 :) I know, it's all downhill from there. Chris
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Programmers are grossly under paid and in general programmers lack the balls to speak up and DEMAND from employers what they are worth. It is time for programmers to join the Teamsters and demand that the teamsters act on their behalf. All programmers should receive a minimum of $100,000 per year! An average rate of pay for a C++ programmer should be $150,000 per year. Stop taking crap from employers--stop pissing in their urine bottles like a bunch of sheep. Any company that requires a drug test is demeaning the employee and no employee should ever take this crap! Let's send aclear message to employers that these nerd programmers will not take crap and demand a minimum of $100,000 per--stand up for yourselves guys and gals!:mad: Bill SerGio, The Infomercial King
No thanks. I rely on the competition between companies to pay me what I'm worth. Software is a pretty volitile industry. Establishing a union will burn the entire industry everytime there is a downturn. Whereas *not* establishing a union will allow the industry to adjust to downturns by (1) giving companies more flexibility in paying employees, and (2) allow for the firing of useless employees. (In fact, one of the main jobs of unions seems to be to prevent companies from firing useless employees, and it hurts everyone else.) Overall, I think unions would hurt software companies and would be the best way to move job overseas. (Have learned anything by watching the US steel industry?) Besides, Bill, you are the *king* of infomercials. As the local CP royalty, aren't you afraid of giving power to the commoners? :)
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Fergetaboutit. I could'nt take the pay cut. Any decent programmer with any cojones of his own is either self employeed or doing contract jobs anyway. The active word here is decent. You would be suprised at the number of people who think they are programmers but have no idea what data structures, alogrithms, state machines, etc.. are. They think drag and drop GUI's are the hot thing to do or will spend 2 weeks writing a new control to do something stupid like different color highlights or some such.. However ask the same person to parse in a delimited text file into records and then sort and eliminate duplicates and all you get is a blank stare. Richard ( Never trust anyone under 40 ) Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: Never trust anyone under 40 I hope that's a joke. Jeremy L. Falcon "You do not know the power of the dumb side." Homepage : Sonork = 100.16311
Maybe my mangling might misguide malicious miscreants momentarily? -
Richard Stringer wrote: Never trust anyone under 40 I hope that's a joke. Jeremy L. Falcon "You do not know the power of the dumb side." Homepage : Sonork = 100.16311
Maybe my mangling might misguide malicious miscreants momentarily?No Joke. Perfectly serious At 20 you know all the answers At 40 you know all the questions At 50 you can relate the two Wisdom must be attained - not learned Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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No Joke. Perfectly serious At 20 you know all the answers At 40 you know all the questions At 50 you can relate the two Wisdom must be attained - not learned Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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No Joke. Perfectly serious At 20 you know all the answers At 40 you know all the questions At 50 you can relate the two Wisdom must be attained - not learned Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: No Joke. Perfectly serious Truly sad: if I thought that way, there would have been no way that I could have lead a group of developers, nor delegated authority and/or responisbility if I did not trust 'em. Richard Stringer wrote: Wisdom must be attained - not learned But to believe that all people attain knowledge/wisdom/whatever at the same rate (or at the same point in their lives) is naive... :) Some may have known all of the answers at 17, all of the questions at 26, and almost has all of the peices together at 33! (Not that I am 33 yet...) Peace! -=- James. "Fat people are hard to kidnap." (Try Check Favorites Sometime!)
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No thanks. I rely on the competition between companies to pay me what I'm worth. Software is a pretty volitile industry. Establishing a union will burn the entire industry everytime there is a downturn. Whereas *not* establishing a union will allow the industry to adjust to downturns by (1) giving companies more flexibility in paying employees, and (2) allow for the firing of useless employees. (In fact, one of the main jobs of unions seems to be to prevent companies from firing useless employees, and it hurts everyone else.) Overall, I think unions would hurt software companies and would be the best way to move job overseas. (Have learned anything by watching the US steel industry?) Besides, Bill, you are the *king* of infomercials. As the local CP royalty, aren't you afraid of giving power to the commoners? :)
Brit wrote: No thanks. I rely on the competition between companies to pay me what I'm worth. The one thing that causes that ideal to fail is that not all companies (or people, for that matter) have the necessary acumen to correctly determine what you really are worth. However, there is a good chance that they believe that they do! :| Peace! -=- James. "Fat people are hard to kidnap." (Try Check Favorites Sometime!)
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Of course, it's been shown that new scientific ideas are most likely to come from the youngest group. Older people tend to get stuck in the "status quo" rut and, therefore, fail to discover new and revolutionary ideas.
Elucidate if you are going to make a statement like "its been shown". In physics there is some correlation in that Uncle Albert did the work on realativity when in his late 20's and Newton did some of his best work before thirty. However in many ( most ) fields one will find that the accumalition of knowledge leads to better and more productive work. This is true in many diverse fields such as chemistery, engineering, genetics, medicine, anthropology, etc.. While having an uncluttered mind is beneficial in some respects, it is not so in others. I direct your attention to the habit of many programmers to simply throw code at a problem rather than to carefully plan a solution and then code the solution. This comes from experience and can not be taught. I think those among us who have had the unique challenge of coding on the old 2-4 -8 16 K machines in assembler have a big advantage on those kids who thinks that God invented computers with a minimum or 256 Megs and a 20 gig hard drive along with and advanced language. How namy "programmers" these days can build a state machine, have a working knowledge of fuzzy logic, data structures, alogrithims, know when to use a while loop as opposed to a do while loop, have an idea what decomposition is, can code floating point routines, etc... Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Richard Stringer wrote: No Joke. Perfectly serious Truly sad: if I thought that way, there would have been no way that I could have lead a group of developers, nor delegated authority and/or responisbility if I did not trust 'em. Richard Stringer wrote: Wisdom must be attained - not learned But to believe that all people attain knowledge/wisdom/whatever at the same rate (or at the same point in their lives) is naive... :) Some may have known all of the answers at 17, all of the questions at 26, and almost has all of the peices together at 33! (Not that I am 33 yet...) Peace! -=- James. "Fat people are hard to kidnap." (Try Check Favorites Sometime!)
All things are Possible but all things are not Probable. And if you trust them why would you have such things as peer review and code verifcation ? As a business owner I have the unique problem of hiring people that effect MY bottom line. A bad personel decision affects my pocket book directly. It gives one a different perspective. We have programmers from age 20 to 50 and it is my experience that the older ones are more knowleable in general than the younger ones and also have a much better idea of their own strengths and weakness and are better able to communicate abstract ideas and accept direction than the younger. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Elucidate if you are going to make a statement like "its been shown". In physics there is some correlation in that Uncle Albert did the work on realativity when in his late 20's and Newton did some of his best work before thirty. However in many ( most ) fields one will find that the accumalition of knowledge leads to better and more productive work. This is true in many diverse fields such as chemistery, engineering, genetics, medicine, anthropology, etc.. While having an uncluttered mind is beneficial in some respects, it is not so in others. I direct your attention to the habit of many programmers to simply throw code at a problem rather than to carefully plan a solution and then code the solution. This comes from experience and can not be taught. I think those among us who have had the unique challenge of coding on the old 2-4 -8 16 K machines in assembler have a big advantage on those kids who thinks that God invented computers with a minimum or 256 Megs and a 20 gig hard drive along with and advanced language. How namy "programmers" these days can build a state machine, have a working knowledge of fuzzy logic, data structures, alogrithims, know when to use a while loop as opposed to a do while loop, have an idea what decomposition is, can code floating point routines, etc... Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
"Old" vs "Young" of course has a lot to do with what it is that you are trying to accomplish. Some problems do favor experience over new ideas. In other cases, it is reversed. (Which reminds me of a quote I saw on the door of a math professor - it said something to the effect that theoretical mathematicians tend to have great bursts of creativity when they are young, but new ideas come less frequently with age; applied mathematicians, on the other hand, tend to age quite gracefully.)
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All things are Possible but all things are not Probable. And if you trust them why would you have such things as peer review and code verifcation ? As a business owner I have the unique problem of hiring people that effect MY bottom line. A bad personel decision affects my pocket book directly. It gives one a different perspective. We have programmers from age 20 to 50 and it is my experience that the older ones are more knowleable in general than the younger ones and also have a much better idea of their own strengths and weakness and are better able to communicate abstract ideas and accept direction than the younger. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
All things are Possible but all things are not Probable. Of course! My intent was simply to point out that perhaps "never trust" was a poor choice of words. You response seems to agree with that. And if you trust them why would you have such things as peer review and code verifcation? Because everyone, even those that you trust, makes mistakes sometimes. We have programmers from age 20 to 50 and it is my experience that the older ones are more knowleable in general than the younger ones and also have a much better idea of their own strengths and weakness and are better able to communicate abstract ideas and accept direction than the younger. I have no trouble believing that (I was young once...! :) ), but when you have been in my position, where you may be overseeing older developers, the opposite is true: the younger ones seem to respect me a bit more than the older ones. And just because someome was writing Fortran and Cobol on a PDP-11 when I was still in grade school does not automatically mean that they are making the correct decisions involving today's systems, today's architecture, and today's development languages. We are not writing the same code that was being written 15 years ago. Sometimes, that can be a difficult pill to swallow. It seems we both have had a decent share of good and bad experiences involving different ages... YMMV. :) Peace! -=- James. "Fat people are hard to kidnap." (Try Check Favorites Sometime!)