Oh, and one other point on minimum wage...
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Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them.
If you equate government regulation to tyranny, then you're right. However, according to dictionary.com, tyranny is: 1. arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority. 2. the government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler. 3. a state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler. 4. oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler. 5. undue severity or harshness. 6. a tyrannical act or proceeding. Is minimum wage really "severe, harsh, or oppressive" for businesses? Are they suffering because instead of paying $3.00/hour for a janitor, they have to pay $7.15? If you look at the Economic Policy Institute's Minimum Wage Issue Guide, in 1975, CEOs earned 78 times the minimum wage earners of their day. Today's average Chief Executive earns 821 times what a minimum wage worker earns. Oh, the tyranny! :rolleyes: Alvaro
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway. -
Once you or your family fall into poverty it becomes bloody hard to get away from it. The minimum wage act is designed to assist those in poverty.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
it becomes bloody hard to get away from it.
Especially in an economy depressed by bureaucratic interference with free markets. The freer the markets, the greater the opportunity to free ones self not merely economically, but politically also.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them.
If you equate government regulation to tyranny, then you're right. However, according to dictionary.com, tyranny is: 1. arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority. 2. the government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler. 3. a state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler. 4. oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler. 5. undue severity or harshness. 6. a tyrannical act or proceeding. Is minimum wage really "severe, harsh, or oppressive" for businesses? Are they suffering because instead of paying $3.00/hour for a janitor, they have to pay $7.15? If you look at the Economic Policy Institute's Minimum Wage Issue Guide, in 1975, CEOs earned 78 times the minimum wage earners of their day. Today's average Chief Executive earns 821 times what a minimum wage worker earns. Oh, the tyranny! :rolleyes: Alvaro
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway.Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I thought you might appreciate that.
Sounds like a challenge to me, stay tuned for me :)
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
I trimble with anticipation! :~
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare
That in the UK is simply not true. For proof, search the following website, you will see frequently that a large proportion of job pays the basic Minimum Wage as defined by UK Law http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/Internet/setLocale.do?country=GB&language=en&page=/initialise.do[^]
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Christian Graus wrote:
I've pointed out at least three times, that the flip side of the issue is that a society should protect it's weakest members. You've failed to respond to this. I can only assume that this means you don't think anyone deserves societies protection, unless they have a well paying job.
And I have resonded repeatedly that it doesn't protect anyone from anything other than themselves. Even if you could argue that you are proteceting them economically (which you aren't) you are not protecting their freedom. Freedom is about personnal responsibility and being able to care for oneself. That is what should be encouraged. A growing economy is the best protection for the poor, not having government trying to micromanage the economy for your benefit.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
you are not protecting their freedom.
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Come on Richard, you're not new here. Everything about Stan is to do with Communism. I think I just heard Red calling, he want's his prisim back.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Careful, he'll start claiming you are stalking him now. Anything for the attention... :rolleyes:
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
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Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Oh, if that's the case, Welcome to Tyranny! It often sucks to have restrictions on your freedom, but when you consider that in societies such this one, it is usually done with the common good in mind, it makes it easier to accept. The restriction I hate the most are speed limits. They're usually 10 or 15 mph slower than they ought to be. Short of becoming a tyrant yourself, I doubt there's a place on Earth that allows you to act completely free. Even a tyrant has to watch his back.
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway. -
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
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Shog9 wrote:
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
Income taxation as it currently exists in the US certainly is. I agree completely, it is a much more significant issue. The problem with minimum wage is that it is an direct assualt on free market capitalism, while income tax is an assault on the private property of individuals.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
it becomes bloody hard to get away from it.
Especially in an economy depressed by bureaucratic interference with free markets. The freer the markets, the greater the opportunity to free ones self not merely economically, but politically also.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan, you seem unable to understand that not everyone is equally able to take those opportunities. $10,000 a year is hardly a living wage, but a minimum wage does guarentee that people who are working, are making enough to scrap by, while they wait for ( or hopefully seek ) better opportunities. Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Oh, if that's the case, Welcome to Tyranny! It often sucks to have restrictions on your freedom, but when you consider that in societies such this one, it is usually done with the common good in mind, it makes it easier to accept. The restriction I hate the most are speed limits. They're usually 10 or 15 mph slower than they ought to be. Short of becoming a tyrant yourself, I doubt there's a place on Earth that allows you to act completely free. Even a tyrant has to watch his back.
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway.All of which indicates your complete misunderstanding of Jeffersonian democracy.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Jefferson lived in a very different world.
So did Marx, but that doesn't seem to stop people from wanting to be Marxist. Jeffersonianism still works just fine. It should be the political model the world strives towards.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
you are not protecting their freedom.
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
And the further you go from free markets to managed economies, the more necessary that choice becomes.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ?
Reminds of Alan Jones and his use of the term 'Un-Australian'
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
MAybe he needs to talk to Stan ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
you are not protecting their freedom.
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
I would. Freedom is priceless and if I had no standard options to get food and shelter then I would trap rabbits and build my own damn place. You don't need society to live. There is always a way to make a living, whether its in nature or in the city you can always live fairly well if you try. This has nothing to do with minimum wage but I would much rather have freedom and get my own damn food and shelter than be a slave to the government and have food and shelter given to me.
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Stan, you seem unable to understand that not everyone is equally able to take those opportunities. $10,000 a year is hardly a living wage, but a minimum wage does guarentee that people who are working, are making enough to scrap by, while they wait for ( or hopefully seek ) better opportunities. Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
If the only way I have to protect my car from being stolen is to submit to Marxist tyranny, I'll take my chances with the poverty stricken masses, driven to depravity by the evil and greed of capitalism. :rolleyes:
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about