Oh, and one other point on minimum wage...
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Careful, he'll start claiming you are stalking him now. Anything for the attention... :rolleyes:
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
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Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Oh, if that's the case, Welcome to Tyranny! It often sucks to have restrictions on your freedom, but when you consider that in societies such this one, it is usually done with the common good in mind, it makes it easier to accept. The restriction I hate the most are speed limits. They're usually 10 or 15 mph slower than they ought to be. Short of becoming a tyrant yourself, I doubt there's a place on Earth that allows you to act completely free. Even a tyrant has to watch his back.
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway. -
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
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Shog9 wrote:
Trivial issue. I have to pay taxes on the wages i'm paid. That's tyranny. Complaining about minimum wage is like whining that the bandits who invaded your house tracked mud on the carpet.
Income taxation as it currently exists in the US certainly is. I agree completely, it is a much more significant issue. The problem with minimum wage is that it is an direct assualt on free market capitalism, while income tax is an assault on the private property of individuals.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
it becomes bloody hard to get away from it.
Especially in an economy depressed by bureaucratic interference with free markets. The freer the markets, the greater the opportunity to free ones self not merely economically, but politically also.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan, you seem unable to understand that not everyone is equally able to take those opportunities. $10,000 a year is hardly a living wage, but a minimum wage does guarentee that people who are working, are making enough to scrap by, while they wait for ( or hopefully seek ) better opportunities. Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Oh, if that's the case, Welcome to Tyranny! It often sucks to have restrictions on your freedom, but when you consider that in societies such this one, it is usually done with the common good in mind, it makes it easier to accept. The restriction I hate the most are speed limits. They're usually 10 or 15 mph slower than they ought to be. Short of becoming a tyrant yourself, I doubt there's a place on Earth that allows you to act completely free. Even a tyrant has to watch his back.
Eat right.
Exercise.
Die anyway.All of which indicates your complete misunderstanding of Jeffersonian democracy.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely
OK, so I ask again, what do you say to people who are not smart enough to become a brain surgeon ? Starve ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
If most jobs pay more, then why does it matter ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
living my life as an American
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ? Jefferson lived in a very different world.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Jefferson lived in a very different world.
So did Marx, but that doesn't seem to stop people from wanting to be Marxist. Jeffersonianism still works just fine. It should be the political model the world strives towards.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
you are not protecting their freedom.
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
And the further you go from free markets to managed economies, the more necessary that choice becomes.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
So no-one who disagrees with you, is American ?
Reminds of Alan Jones and his use of the term 'Un-Australian'
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
MAybe he needs to talk to Stan ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
you are not protecting their freedom.
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
I would. Freedom is priceless and if I had no standard options to get food and shelter then I would trap rabbits and build my own damn place. You don't need society to live. There is always a way to make a living, whether its in nature or in the city you can always live fairly well if you try. This has nothing to do with minimum wage but I would much rather have freedom and get my own damn food and shelter than be a slave to the government and have food and shelter given to me.
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Stan, you seem unable to understand that not everyone is equally able to take those opportunities. $10,000 a year is hardly a living wage, but a minimum wage does guarentee that people who are working, are making enough to scrap by, while they wait for ( or hopefully seek ) better opportunities. Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
If the only way I have to protect my car from being stolen is to submit to Marxist tyranny, I'll take my chances with the poverty stricken masses, driven to depravity by the evil and greed of capitalism. :rolleyes:
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jefferson lived in a very different world.
So did Marx, but that doesn't seem to stop people from wanting to be Marxist. Jeffersonianism still works just fine. It should be the political model the world strives towards.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
I wonder how many people would choose freedom, over food and shelter ?
I would. Freedom is priceless and if I had no standard options to get food and shelter then I would trap rabbits and build my own damn place. You don't need society to live. There is always a way to make a living, whether its in nature or in the city you can always live fairly well if you try. This has nothing to do with minimum wage but I would much rather have freedom and get my own damn food and shelter than be a slave to the government and have food and shelter given to me.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
I would.
I'm sure you would.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
then I would trap rabbits and build my own damn place
What if you lived in the middle of LA ? Just picking LA because I've seen it, and it's huge.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
This has nothing to do with minimum wage but I would much rather have freedom and get my own damn food and shelter than be a slave to the government and have food and shelter given to me.
Well, that really is my attiude too, I was still willing to take the dole while I looked for work. But, I was never happy about it. I just knew that I needed to eat and live. Living in the woods, how would you go on to find a job ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
I would.
I'm sure you would.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
then I would trap rabbits and build my own damn place
What if you lived in the middle of LA ? Just picking LA because I've seen it, and it's huge.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
This has nothing to do with minimum wage but I would much rather have freedom and get my own damn food and shelter than be a slave to the government and have food and shelter given to me.
Well, that really is my attiude too, I was still willing to take the dole while I looked for work. But, I was never happy about it. I just knew that I needed to eat and live. Living in the woods, how would you go on to find a job ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
What if you lived in the middle of LA ? Just picking LA because I've seen it, and it's huge.
You could either get out of there by any means you can or get associated with the right people.
Christian Graus wrote:
Living in the woods, how would you go on to find a job ?
Well living in the woods is extreme unless you actually managed to build a nice cabin. Think about how America got started or how a city grows from a few shacks and tents into a big city. You don't need governments to give you money or whatever because you can support your self or team up with people in your situation and do something. The more we heavily rely on other people or governments the weaker we will get. Its like feeding a lion in a cage all its life, it just turns into a lazy, stupid, and helpless creature.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What if you lived in the middle of LA ? Just picking LA because I've seen it, and it's huge.
You could either get out of there by any means you can or get associated with the right people.
Christian Graus wrote:
Living in the woods, how would you go on to find a job ?
Well living in the woods is extreme unless you actually managed to build a nice cabin. Think about how America got started or how a city grows from a few shacks and tents into a big city. You don't need governments to give you money or whatever because you can support your self or team up with people in your situation and do something. The more we heavily rely on other people or governments the weaker we will get. Its like feeding a lion in a cage all its life, it just turns into a lazy, stupid, and helpless creature.
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That's a lovely story. Let me paint you a picture. You live in LA with your wife and two kids. You lose your job. Which wilderness are you going to relocate to, so yuo can feed your wife and kids on trapped rabbits ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Even if Jeffersonian principles in the business sense seems to undermine or threaten democratic principles [^]
Jeffersonian concerns about 'big business' are always brought up by Marxists in an attempt to make the two appear similar. Hamilton, in fact, was far closer to being a Marxist than Jefferson was. In the early industrial revolution, just starting about the time of Jeffersons political career, there were concerns about industry versus agriculture, and certainly Jefferson thought an agricultural life an ideal life (even when supported by slavery). But the Jeffersonians were far more concerned about protecting private property from government than they were about industrial growth, and would certainly not have seen infringement upon privately owned business interests by government as being an expansion of democracy.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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That's a lovely story. Let me paint you a picture. You live in LA with your wife and two kids. You lose your job. Which wilderness are you going to relocate to, so yuo can feed your wife and kids on trapped rabbits ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
That's a lovely story. Let me paint you a picture. You live in LA with your wife and two kids. You lose your job. Which wilderness are you going to relocate to, so yuo can feed your wife and kids on trapped rabbits ?
Well it would be easier to rebuild your life if you have a family because you would have more support. Assuming we already have a home I would just get any job I can get and make extra money by freelancing and hopefully my wife would get a job also. There is always work that needs to be done and money to be made and with so many people out there it wouldn't be too hard to get associated with the right people who would help me out and give me work. Just because I lost my job that doesnt mean I should totally abandon society and start my own. I certainly wouldn't just sit around and watch my children starve, it would provide even more motivation. This is totally getting off topic. If the economy totally crashed and I was unable to find work or a way to make money then I would find a place where I could grow some crops and raise some cows or pigs and live off the land. There is always a way to survive.
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peterchen wrote:
You are still free to not employ someone.
Thats like telling me I'm free to not buy anything the government might wish to regulate. That isn't freedom, that is the abscence of it. Thats communism. If I am free, if I own my own pizza hut, it is no ones business but mine and the people I hire how much I pay them. If they don't like it, they can find another job.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Thats like telling me I'm free to not buy anything the government might wish to regulate.
yes.
Stan Shannon wrote:
That isn't freedom, that is the abscence of it.
No.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Thats communism.
No.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If I am free, if I own my own pizza hut, it is no ones business but mine and the people I hire how much I pay them. If they don't like it, they can find another job
When only $2 jobs are available - because everyone paying more cannot compete - they have no job to go to. But conveniently, it's "the markets" fault, not yours or anyones, and the market is of course sacred. it is so convenient for you to have a blamebody like the government that I wonder if you hadn't one, would you make one?
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