Developer's Age
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experience is a function of age. a serious employer will look at experience, and then look at what it will bring to the company. if for a certain type of work, you have two candidated with both 4 years of experience in the particular field you are looking for, but one candidate have 10 years of previous experience in other fields ( related or not ) and the other who just had one job in that field; the decision will be what you feel that candidate will bring to your company in the short, medium and long term.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
Thanks for the reply, I think the same. However I am more interested in the upper limit of age that employers (if it is a consideration at all) are willing to take in as part of their staff. Is there something as too old, say for example 50's or mid-40's? For contractors you have to periodically move from an employer to another depending on contract negotiations whereas for permanents you can potentially stay in the same place for the rest of your working life so you are pretty much assured of work until your age of retirement. If you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
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ZapBranny wrote:
Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role?
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long. Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
With an element of objection, I'd say what you said is perfectly right. OMG what am I trying to say?:~ . Yup, 20 years of experience is not better than 2 years? I'd say it's dependant on the employer's eyes & the proficiency of the employee. It's the programmer's wish to accept a promotion or a change in the verticle. For example, John Simmons once said he wishes to die as a programmer rather than becoming a manager.
Dario: How is "directory" in French? (I mean a file system directory). John Simmons: "zee file holdaire thingie"
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Well, I'm (almost) 19 and got no end of work at the moment, but then there aren't a lot of people who can program well down my neck of the woods (South West Wales), there's a local company that I've worked for. Summer 04, 05 and 06 till now because of gap year. First year I was meant to be getting some hardware experience but they found out I could program and since then I get all manner of tasks. Even if I don't know a particular language / application type they want coded they know I can pick it up quickly enough to roll out the program. I overheard my boss talking to a colleague saying it's nice having me working for them because officially I'm a contractor and am involved more in the research side of things so I don't have to go through all the paperwork they do (medial electronics has lorry loads worth of it) so if I say I can do a project in 3 months, they'd read it as they'd take 12 but usually I'd roll it out in 2. Ah it's a nice life for the moment :-D
Ed.Poore wrote:
Well, I'm (almost) 19 and got no end of work at the moment
Are you just out of high school? I'm surprised to find out that there are such young people like you actually getting paid to program, that must be great.
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With an element of objection, I'd say what you said is perfectly right. OMG what am I trying to say?:~ . Yup, 20 years of experience is not better than 2 years? I'd say it's dependant on the employer's eyes & the proficiency of the employee. It's the programmer's wish to accept a promotion or a change in the verticle. For example, John Simmons once said he wishes to die as a programmer rather than becoming a manager.
Dario: How is "directory" in French? (I mean a file system directory). John Simmons: "zee file holdaire thingie"
VuNic wrote:
For example, John Simmons once said he wishes to die as a programmer rather than becoming a manager.
I always told my management that if they wanted to watch me walk out the door all they had to do was make me a manager.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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VuNic wrote:
For example, John Simmons once said he wishes to die as a programmer rather than becoming a manager.
I always told my management that if they wanted to watch me walk out the door all they had to do was make me a manager.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
Yeah even I'm finding my Boss running all time, but somehow, the "L" thing gives them a huge advantange wherever they go. He's L-5 and I'm Level-1 :sigh:. If I hesitate to accept any promotion, thn I'll keep sitting on the "request-request" end and he'd be sitting on the "approve-approve" end. :sigh:
Dario: How is "directory" in French? (I mean a file system directory). John Simmons: "zee file holdaire thingie"
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experience is a function of age. a serious employer will look at experience, and then look at what it will bring to the company. if for a certain type of work, you have two candidated with both 4 years of experience in the particular field you are looking for, but one candidate have 10 years of previous experience in other fields ( related or not ) and the other who just had one job in that field; the decision will be what you feel that candidate will bring to your company in the short, medium and long term.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
Maximilien wrote:
a serious employer will look at experience, and then look at what it will bring to the company.
I would say a talented employer will not rely on once history (how many years of experience an employee is having) to predict the future of him. Rather he/ she should currently evaluate the employee for a given period of time and should be able to predict his tomorrow's contribution to the company. I have seen people with lots of experience but not productive as a young one with lesser experience. It is not just the experience what matters.. I have a good example for this. In early days fighter jet missiles use to find and attack the jet based on the jet’s history. That is, the missile thrown on to the heat path of the jet and then by driving its direction through the heat path the missile find, hit and destroy the jet. That missile was not that accurate. Today they have improved the technology, where the missile evaluates the jet positioning by considering its present moving direction. At a time missile take the jet’s speed and direction and predict the future position by the time missile hit the jet. There the missile adjust its direction dynamically hence the accuracy of hitting its goal increase a lot. So the conclusion is that it is better not to rely on once history..
L.W.C. Nirosh. Colombo, Sri Lanka.
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Well, I'm (almost) 19 and got no end of work at the moment, but then there aren't a lot of people who can program well down my neck of the woods (South West Wales), there's a local company that I've worked for. Summer 04, 05 and 06 till now because of gap year. First year I was meant to be getting some hardware experience but they found out I could program and since then I get all manner of tasks. Even if I don't know a particular language / application type they want coded they know I can pick it up quickly enough to roll out the program. I overheard my boss talking to a colleague saying it's nice having me working for them because officially I'm a contractor and am involved more in the research side of things so I don't have to go through all the paperwork they do (medial electronics has lorry loads worth of it) so if I say I can do a project in 3 months, they'd read it as they'd take 12 but usually I'd roll it out in 2. Ah it's a nice life for the moment :-D
Ed.Poore wrote:
I don't have to go through all the paperwork they do (medial electronics has lorry loads worth of it)
(Presuming you meant medical electronics)...so, they're well prepared for the law-suits if their machine's the next Therac 25[^], then....I'm involved with safety-critical software as well and I reckon your boss must have big cojones if he's happy to accept software projects without an audit trail demonstrating that you've worked to a quality process (as I'm quite sure you have).
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How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I can say at least for my department we do not discriminate at all.
John
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ZapBranny wrote:
Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role?
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long. Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long
Huh? What does that even mean? I like my job, I enjoy it and I make at least twice what my boss does. And my ambitions are not tied to my day job. There is more to life than the 8 hours a day you spend with a bunch of strangers. Sorry, I meant work colleagues.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Experience has diminishing returns.
What a foolish thing to say. What is your basis for such a general statement? I've been a contractor for almost 20 years and keep my skill set up to date and fresh and have never been out of contract in all that time.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
Except where the older guy has kept up to date: I'd take the older guy over the pup any day. The business in which I'm contracting now has an active policy of trying to hire older people. They're more reliable, they work harder, they're not getting drunk every night and rolling in drunk or having to take time off to help look after babies and young children. They're more willing to do over time and they're more flexible. Youngsters with no experience? Wildly overrated.
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experience is a function of age. a serious employer will look at experience, and then look at what it will bring to the company. if for a certain type of work, you have two candidated with both 4 years of experience in the particular field you are looking for, but one candidate have 10 years of previous experience in other fields ( related or not ) and the other who just had one job in that field; the decision will be what you feel that candidate will bring to your company in the short, medium and long term.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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Ed.Poore wrote:
Well, I'm (almost) 19 and got no end of work at the moment
Are you just out of high school? I'm surprised to find out that there are such young people like you actually getting paid to program, that must be great.
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Age is all about your attitude. That's what every elderly person will tell you, and it's true. If you can do the work and you show that your age is not an issue then there reeally is no excuse. Most people tend to approach things with preconceptions of failure -- that is not the way to do it if you want to succeed. High school in the UK runs to age 16. I was contracting almost full time one month after I left, and all through college. Now I am 23, I own my own company and employ other developers to do exactly the same. There is plenty of opportunity out there for young people.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
IMO it depends on the employer and what are the expectations for the new employee. An employer might want a employee to fit a position and do what that position requires well, or might look at a certain individual which has the potential of growing fast and achieving in the end a higher level of expertise. Some employers might consider a better option of hiring an individual which has professionally evolved fast in a short period of time achieving a status similar to one that has a lot more experience but is at the same level of expertise. Of course this is subjective because there are people who have a lot of years of experience and they have the same ambition and share the same passion for development as they did when they were younger, but I guess these people have achieved a higher level of expertise and and simply better than the young ones. I think what usually happens is a compromise between the younger and the older potential candidates, and let's not forget that the ones with more experience are more expensive. In the end it all comes down to the employer to make a choice between younger and older based on all these facts. And some might choose one and others might chose the other. I wouldn't worry about getting a job even if I were older as long as I have experience and knowledge along my side.
cheers, Mircea "Pay people peanuts and you get monkeys" - David Ogilvy
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How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
ZapBranny wrote:
How important is it to employers?
In the UK it legally has zero importance. An employer cannot take age into account when assessing if a person is suitable for a job.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
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ZapBranny wrote:
Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role?
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long. Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role
No employer wants to pay you what you're worth, regardless of how much experience you have.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long.
Or they're someone like me who knows they have no business being in a management position. I have no patience with absurdity or politics.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
ZapBranny wrote:
How important is it to employers?
In the UK it legally has zero importance. An employer cannot take age into account when assessing if a person is suitable for a job.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
I appreciate all the responses. My reason for asking is that I am hoping that if I could possibly work well into my 50's. I am way much younger and just hoping that I can have a few decades of IT work ahead since I am about to raise a family. The responsibility is quite high since I am expected to be the main source of income as opposed to my future spouse. It's different when you are about to start a family, instead of worrying just about what to wear and the holidays and nice pair of sunnies or the latest pda, you start thinking about mortgage, sending kids to college, and all the other family stuff.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
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Ed.Poore wrote:
Well, I'm (almost) 19 and got no end of work at the moment
Are you just out of high school? I'm surprised to find out that there are such young people like you actually getting paid to program, that must be great.
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Yeah finished my A-Levels last year was meant to be in uni this year but had the cancer so took a year out and they offered me a job throughout the year but I'm working from home now because they don't want the liability if I get an infection in the workplace.
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Ed.Poore wrote:
I don't have to go through all the paperwork they do (medial electronics has lorry loads worth of it)
(Presuming you meant medical electronics)...so, they're well prepared for the law-suits if their machine's the next Therac 25[^], then....I'm involved with safety-critical software as well and I reckon your boss must have big cojones if he's happy to accept software projects without an audit trail demonstrating that you've worked to a quality process (as I'm quite sure you have).
Well up until this year their systems have not been involved with PCs everything is embedded and I havn't really dealt with that. That being said all my software apart from one prorgam has been for internal use. The latest one just completed was a database which is duplicating a paper based system (they have to keep the paper records for ISO9000 compliance), that's more of a useful thing rather than critical since it just allows them to search through their paper trail rather than replace it. The only one which has been released to the public was a programmer for one of their systems and all it really did was dump data line by line down a serial port, all the checking etc was done on the system (because their IrDA link isn't very reliable). The latest project involves controlling their systems[^] over the web and at the moment it's in a research phase so it's more important to show something cool to the bosses that works for the demo than for concrete reliability. The project hasn't officially had the go-ahead from the big bosses but my boss, the boss of R&D is pushing ahead of it (and I'm bl**dy project manager, but at the moment the only one working on it). Hopefully the quality assurance will come after I leave for Uni so they can take over the brunt of it :rolleyes:, then if I return during the summer (going to try & get sponsorship from them) I'll just be helping doing more research & interesting stuff rather than the tedious stuff :cool:
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How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I really think it depends on the people involved (employee and manager) and the type of work environment. Having spent 25 years at a Top-5 university I've seen both incredibly gifted younger folks (and had the pleasure of having several of them work for me) and professors in their mid-70s who could leave me by the side of the road drooling they had such command of their field. I've also seen my share of young 'hotshots' that didn't know jack, and suffered through managing plenty of 'I'm 55 and I've been here 32 years and I don't have to do *anything* until I retire in 4 years' types. I've always been a developer at heart, and when offered the chance a year ago to get out of management and go back into supporting a team of scientists as sysadmin and developer leapt at the chance. Did I have some doubts that at 49 my programming skills might be a bit rusty? You bet. But I've found that in the environment in which I'm working (research support with a small team, not a crushing 24x7 200 person production shop) age isn't really a factor. My boss is in his mid-50s. Still doing brilliant work. The Lab's founder is in her 80s and still involved in research and publishing. On the other hand, would I want to go out 'on the street' and try to get employment as a developer at age 49? No way... don't think I would have a chance against all the young blood. So it really does depend on where you'll be working. A huge .com shop probably isn't going to want 50 year old developers... an academic lab might be a bit more relaxed. Just my .02/worth.
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Thanks for the reply, I think the same. However I am more interested in the upper limit of age that employers (if it is a consideration at all) are willing to take in as part of their staff. Is there something as too old, say for example 50's or mid-40's? For contractors you have to periodically move from an employer to another depending on contract negotiations whereas for permanents you can potentially stay in the same place for the rest of your working life so you are pretty much assured of work until your age of retirement. If you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
ZapBranny wrote:
you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that. Independents are expensive and potential clients are more likely to hire me (46 years old) at a higher rate than some young kid with 4 years of wiz-bang high tech skills at a lower rate, because the work has to be done correctly the first time. They won't risk failure because the low rate guy doesn't have the "project management experience". You get what you pay for... But that is just my "experience." P.S. As an independent, I'm never looking for someone to take me in as a "permie." The money is to good and I'm not subject to that corporate culture.
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ZapBranny wrote:
How important is it to employers?
In the UK it legally has zero importance. An employer cannot take age into account when assessing if a person is suitable for a job.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
In the UK it legally has zero importance. An employer cannot take age into account when assessing if a person is suitable for a job.
I believe it is also illegal to discriminate on the grounds of race/ethnic origin etc. but both happen. Recently, I heard of a man of UK descent who was refused a job here because he could not speak Polish! And before you say it, no the job was not as a Polish interpreter! As is becoming more prevalent here, virtually all the staff at the company were non-English speaking immigrants working for minimum wage (or less!). A couple of weeks ago, a bus company had its licence revoked as none of the drivers spoke English and they couldn't read the road signs! Perhaps this principle:-D could work in IT... "Hello Mr. Smith, we want a C++ programmer." "No problem, I know a bit about HTML, I'll give it a go." :) Rich