Developer's Age
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ZapBranny wrote:
Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role?
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long. Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
I found this article interesting on careerbuilder.com: Job Goals for Every Age Meg Donohue, CareerBuilder.com writer Each decade of life brings a set new of challenges as working professionals move into different phases of both their careers and personal lives. Entering a new decade of life can be a perfect time to take stock of one's situation, reevaluate priorities and set career goals for the years ahead. Setting goals makes people "feel more in control of their destiny, which in turn makes for positive feelings and a sense of purpose," says Laura Berman Fortgang, a pioneer in the life coaching field and the author of several best-selling books, including "Take Yourself to the Top." Nevertheless, Fortgang cautions that people should remain flexible in their goals: "Being tethered to one specific outcome can jeopardize one's ability to recognize other opportunities when they become available." In Your 20s: Establish a Positive Work Record Relax -- you don't need to know exactly what you're going to do with your life just yet. It makes sense to explore your options at this early stage of your working life, as long as you build skills and make contacts along the way. "Deciding what to do long-term is more organic than most people think," Fortgang says, adding that what is essential during this decade is to establish a good work record. "The people you work with ... in your early years could become life-long supporters, mentors and references for years to come. So building a good reputation is important even if you don't see yourself sticking in your current job for long." In Your 30s: Focus on Becoming a Leader People often enter their first management positions in their 30s, and the "switch from being a worker-bee to a leader-in-training ... requires a change in mind-set," Fortgang asserts. "The goal here," Fortang says, "is to get recognized for all you have done, and parlay that into a more focused path." Document your accomplishments so that when it comes time for annual reviews, you have proof of your hard work and leadership experience (or potential). In Your 40s: Reexamine Your Definition of Success In this decade, people get very serious about their earning power and set their sights on top roles that could potentially be theirs now or in the next decade, Fortang reveals. "This is also the time of midlife crises," Fortgang warns, which often result in people questioning their careers. This decade is a good time to take stock of the direct
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ZapBranny wrote:
you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that. Independents are expensive and potential clients are more likely to hire me (46 years old) at a higher rate than some young kid with 4 years of wiz-bang high tech skills at a lower rate, because the work has to be done correctly the first time. They won't risk failure because the low rate guy doesn't have the "project management experience". You get what you pay for... But that is just my "experience." P.S. As an independent, I'm never looking for someone to take me in as a "permie." The money is to good and I'm not subject to that corporate culture.
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Thanks for the reply, I think the same. However I am more interested in the upper limit of age that employers (if it is a consideration at all) are willing to take in as part of their staff. Is there something as too old, say for example 50's or mid-40's? For contractors you have to periodically move from an employer to another depending on contract negotiations whereas for permanents you can potentially stay in the same place for the rest of your working life so you are pretty much assured of work until your age of retirement. If you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
ZapBranny wrote:
Is there something as too old, say for example 50's or mid-40's?
I certainly hope not!!:-D As one of the "old greys" I'm still having no problems finding work, even if most of the guys I work with are half my age. I spent a lot of years writing code for embedded systems, then for military and commercial simulators, and then in my early 40's I moved into computer games. I got the job precisely because I had a lot of years of very varied experience. Now in my mid-50's and still coding*, and even when the company I was working for went bust last year I had 5 offers on the table within a month. None of them seemed bothered in the least by my age. So don't worry about getting older - you'll still be in big demand in the years to come :) And as somebody else said - being old is a state of mind. Life's there to be lived! * Tried the management thing and hated it. The money might be good, but not the hassle (and I missed coding). There are three kinds of people in the world - those who can count and those who can't...
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How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
Hi, I recently saw an articles that say's the following: "Our survey reveals that the community is not only getting richer, it is getting older and taking on more responsibilities as well. For yet another year, the majority of respondents say they are more than 40 years old -- 41.7 years on average, to be precise -- and collectively, the group claims an average of 12.1 years of experience. Like the real world, IT workers are making more and getting grayer (and maybe it's time you begin to plan your retirement)." Source: http://redmondmag.com/salarysurveys/[^] So it seems that age isn't a big issue in the industry as long as it comes with experience.
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
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ZapBranny wrote:
How important is it to employers?
In the UK it legally has zero importance. An employer cannot take age into account when assessing if a person is suitable for a job.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
In the UK it legally has zero importance
While technically correct that legally it has no importance in most western societies it could be an unstated determining factor in the selection process. Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview. Age like race, gender, physical disability, national origin, sexual orientation, etc., cannot be stated legally as a contributing factor but none the less can play a part of the evaluation process when deciding to hire a job candidate. Age does play a factor in peoples evaluation of other people; possibly a subconscious factor, just not a stated one for legal reasons.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I appreciate all the responses. My reason for asking is that I am hoping that if I could possibly work well into my 50's. I am way much younger and just hoping that I can have a few decades of IT work ahead since I am about to raise a family. The responsibility is quite high since I am expected to be the main source of income as opposed to my future spouse. It's different when you are about to start a family, instead of worrying just about what to wear and the holidays and nice pair of sunnies or the latest pda, you start thinking about mortgage, sending kids to college, and all the other family stuff.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I am 73. I have had three contract positions in the last two years, and am about to sign on to a permanent job writing code for embedded systems. I expect to keep working as long as my work is good enough that someone will pay me for it. Ideally, that will be until I die. You rest, you rot. JimT
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long
Huh? What does that even mean? I like my job, I enjoy it and I make at least twice what my boss does. And my ambitions are not tied to my day job. There is more to life than the 8 hours a day you spend with a bunch of strangers. Sorry, I meant work colleagues.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Experience has diminishing returns.
What a foolish thing to say. What is your basis for such a general statement? I've been a contractor for almost 20 years and keep my skill set up to date and fresh and have never been out of contract in all that time.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
Except where the older guy has kept up to date: I'd take the older guy over the pup any day. The business in which I'm contracting now has an active policy of trying to hire older people. They're more reliable, they work harder, they're not getting drunk every night and rolling in drunk or having to take time off to help look after babies and young children. They're more willing to do over time and they're more flexible. Youngsters with no experience? Wildly overrated.
digital man wrote:
And my ambitions are not tied to my day job
And your employer knows it.
digital man wrote:
What a foolish thing to say. What is your basis for such a general statement?
Pay a programmer with 3 years experience $60K per year. Pay a programmer with 30 years experience $600K per year? I think not. You, sir, are a fool.
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Well up until this year their systems have not been involved with PCs everything is embedded and I havn't really dealt with that. That being said all my software apart from one prorgam has been for internal use. The latest one just completed was a database which is duplicating a paper based system (they have to keep the paper records for ISO9000 compliance), that's more of a useful thing rather than critical since it just allows them to search through their paper trail rather than replace it. The only one which has been released to the public was a programmer for one of their systems and all it really did was dump data line by line down a serial port, all the checking etc was done on the system (because their IrDA link isn't very reliable). The latest project involves controlling their systems[^] over the web and at the moment it's in a research phase so it's more important to show something cool to the bosses that works for the demo than for concrete reliability. The project hasn't officially had the go-ahead from the big bosses but my boss, the boss of R&D is pushing ahead of it (and I'm bl**dy project manager, but at the moment the only one working on it). Hopefully the quality assurance will come after I leave for Uni so they can take over the brunt of it :rolleyes:, then if I return during the summer (going to try & get sponsorship from them) I'll just be helping doing more research & interesting stuff rather than the tedious stuff :cool:
Ed.Poore wrote:
they have to keep the paper records for ISO9000 compliance
I'd hope they keep the paper for IEC 61508[^] compliance rather than ISO9000 (at least I think it's 61508 that applies to medical systems) - we have to do the paperwork for DO-178[^] compliance, but then, we do have these guys[^] auditting us regularly, checking we've dotted our i's and crossed our t's.
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Age is all about your attitude. That's what every elderly person will tell you, and it's true. If you can do the work and you show that your age is not an issue then there reeally is no excuse. Most people tend to approach things with preconceptions of failure -- that is not the way to do it if you want to succeed. High school in the UK runs to age 16. I was contracting almost full time one month after I left, and all through college. Now I am 23, I own my own company and employ other developers to do exactly the same. There is plenty of opportunity out there for young people.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milkDavid Wulff wrote:
Age is all about your attitude. That's what every elderly person will tell you, and it's true. If you can do the work and you show that your age is not an issue then there reeally is no excuse.
Every developer job around here I see advertised requires a bachelors or masters degree.
David Wulff wrote:
Now I am 23, I own my own company and employ other developers to do exactly the same. There is plenty of opportunity out there for young people.
I want to start my own company someday. I have always dreamed about starting Henize Software ever since I got interested in programming when I was 12. What kind of software does your company create? When did you start your company?
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ZapBranny wrote:
Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role?
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long. Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role
This is the correlation between age and wage, so in a way it's not age-discrimination -- if any older person quotes lower it probably won't matter.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long.
I personally avoid shops that have this mindset. They're usually run by folks who don't get that programmers like to program so much -- they don't understand why everyone doesn't want to climb the management ladder like they do.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
This is true, of course. There's a limit to the wage or salary a programmer can pull down. You can raise that limit by getting into certain applications like financial services, or getting ownership in some way (writing your own software, getting into a partnership etc), or going down the CIO/CTO path (which gets you away from programming, at least every day). The thing that seems to be missing from this equation is the weight of analysis/design skills -- I think it's probably true that pure coding skills are gained in the first few years, but analysis/design skills take quite a while longer. Steve
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David Wulff wrote:
Age is all about your attitude. That's what every elderly person will tell you, and it's true. If you can do the work and you show that your age is not an issue then there reeally is no excuse.
Every developer job around here I see advertised requires a bachelors or masters degree.
David Wulff wrote:
Now I am 23, I own my own company and employ other developers to do exactly the same. There is plenty of opportunity out there for young people.
I want to start my own company someday. I have always dreamed about starting Henize Software ever since I got interested in programming when I was 12. What kind of software does your company create? When did you start your company?
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
Captain See Sharp wrote:
Every developer job around here I see advertised requires a bachelors or masters degree.
Full time jobs are different, with shorter contracts you may have more luck.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
What kind of software does your company create? When did you start your company?
Our work is split approximately 50% contract and consulting, 30% service, 10% R&D and 10% ISV. Most of our work is in communications (telecommunications and information exchange). The software we create under contract is mainly for internal use by our clients, process and line of business comms apps mainly, but we are developing some in-house products too such as the ASP.NET 2.0 version of our free forum software. The services we run range from lead management tools for estate agents to adult entertainment on mobile phones (a market that is much bigger in this country than yours). The R&D is on our own hardware device (I can't say any more yet). The company has been trading since 1997, initially as an unregistered alias of an umbrella company, but was incorporated in 2000 when I left school. We split into two legal entities in 2004 (service and software) but still operate day-to-day as one.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business. I interview on the basis of my skills and experience. When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"... Ideally, you would have a mixture of younger and older people on your team. There are many examples where my intern has helped me, but many more examples of me helping him learn. Regardless, I need him to get the "grunt-work" done, while I focus on bigger issues. Employers who realise the benefit of that complimentary setup, will ignore age for the most part.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
ZapBranny wrote:
you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that. Independents are expensive and potential clients are more likely to hire me (46 years old) at a higher rate than some young kid with 4 years of wiz-bang high tech skills at a lower rate, because the work has to be done correctly the first time. They won't risk failure because the low rate guy doesn't have the "project management experience". You get what you pay for... But that is just my "experience." P.S. As an independent, I'm never looking for someone to take me in as a "permie." The money is to good and I'm not subject to that corporate culture.
rtalan wrote:
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that.
Agreed. I've discovered the same thing. Us "older" developers get more work done than the younger, less experienced developers not because we know all the "gee whiz" new technology and buzzwords; we know how to make tools work regardless of what they are and that takes experience. My supervisor made the observation that the market has changed in recent years. Instead of wanting to jettison the 50+ age set (which I am approaching) they are wanting to KEEP them because productivity isn't just a matter of which cool tools are being used - it's a matter of knowing which tools to pick and which ones to NOT pick. That takes experience, which takes TIME. -CB :)
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
In the UK it legally has zero importance
While technically correct that legally it has no importance in most western societies it could be an unstated determining factor in the selection process. Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview. Age like race, gender, physical disability, national origin, sexual orientation, etc., cannot be stated legally as a contributing factor but none the less can play a part of the evaluation process when deciding to hire a job candidate. Age does play a factor in peoples evaluation of other people; possibly a subconscious factor, just not a stated one for legal reasons.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview.
Or the decision not to call people in for an interview at all. I remember a former boss of mine complaining that he had got so many applications for one job that he just *had* to eliminate candidates on criteria he felt might be unfair. In his case, he didn't even interview anyone who didn't have all the relevant Microsoft certifications - which would have stopped me getting my own job back off him. (He also rejected any CV that demonstrated an inability to spell, in which I did support him :)). He just couldn't interview that many people. I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria. I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. When I have finished feeding, nappy-changing and mothering a successive two infants into toddlerhood, I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years. I'm just hoping that the occasional contract and freelance job, and a few articles on Code Project will be enough to convince employers that my brain hasn't been atrophied by baby vomit! :~
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role
This is the correlation between age and wage, so in a way it's not age-discrimination -- if any older person quotes lower it probably won't matter.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long.
I personally avoid shops that have this mindset. They're usually run by folks who don't get that programmers like to program so much -- they don't understand why everyone doesn't want to climb the management ladder like they do.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
This is true, of course. There's a limit to the wage or salary a programmer can pull down. You can raise that limit by getting into certain applications like financial services, or getting ownership in some way (writing your own software, getting into a partnership etc), or going down the CIO/CTO path (which gets you away from programming, at least every day). The thing that seems to be missing from this equation is the weight of analysis/design skills -- I think it's probably true that pure coding skills are gained in the first few years, but analysis/design skills take quite a while longer. Steve
mobilemobile wrote:
I think it's probably true that pure coding skills are gained in the first few years, but analysis/design skills take quite a while longer
Yes, I agree 100%.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview.
Or the decision not to call people in for an interview at all. I remember a former boss of mine complaining that he had got so many applications for one job that he just *had* to eliminate candidates on criteria he felt might be unfair. In his case, he didn't even interview anyone who didn't have all the relevant Microsoft certifications - which would have stopped me getting my own job back off him. (He also rejected any CV that demonstrated an inability to spell, in which I did support him :)). He just couldn't interview that many people. I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria. I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. When I have finished feeding, nappy-changing and mothering a successive two infants into toddlerhood, I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years. I'm just hoping that the occasional contract and freelance job, and a few articles on Code Project will be enough to convince employers that my brain hasn't been atrophied by baby vomit! :~
Emma Burrows wrote:
I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria.
Unfortunately that is true. When it comes to age it is easy to spot because of the length of time in the industry. Provided the criteria are never formalized it would be impossible to prove that discrimination has taken place. :sigh:
Emma Burrows wrote:
I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. ... I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years.
The sad fact is that it is easier to get a job if you have one than it is if you are not currently employed. X| In your situation I would recommend you start your re-entry into the job market by working for a consultancy. They are less concerned with gaps in your CV as they are about your ability to do the job. :cool: It is in their interest to promote you to clients so they will not mention that you are just returning from maternity leave. :~ You are, after all, currently employed by them. :suss: Once you are employed you can then decide if you want to continue as a consultant or get full time placement. There are trade offs that you can evaluate at that time. :cool:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Ed.Poore wrote:
they have to keep the paper records for ISO9000 compliance
I'd hope they keep the paper for IEC 61508[^] compliance rather than ISO9000 (at least I think it's 61508 that applies to medical systems) - we have to do the paperwork for DO-178[^] compliance, but then, we do have these guys[^] auditting us regularly, checking we've dotted our i's and crossed our t's.
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I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business. I interview on the basis of my skills and experience. When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"... Ideally, you would have a mixture of younger and older people on your team. There are many examples where my intern has helped me, but many more examples of me helping him learn. Regardless, I need him to get the "grunt-work" done, while I focus on bigger issues. Employers who realise the benefit of that complimentary setup, will ignore age for the most part.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles.Jasmine2501 wrote:
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business.
In fact it is illegal to ask in most western societies. :doh:
Jasmine2501 wrote:
When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"...
I am surprised to hear that the interviewer would ask that question. That is one of the unspoken questions under the current legal climate in the US; along with race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. :~ There is actually no need to ask how old you are and risk a discrimination lawsuit if you are not chosen for the job, for whatever reason. When you say you have 20 years experience there is no question as to your age! :rolleyes:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I am 73. I have had three contract positions in the last two years, and am about to sign on to a permanent job writing code for embedded systems. I expect to keep working as long as my work is good enough that someone will pay me for it. Ideally, that will be until I die. You rest, you rot. JimT
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business.
In fact it is illegal to ask in most western societies. :doh:
Jasmine2501 wrote:
When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"...
I am surprised to hear that the interviewer would ask that question. That is one of the unspoken questions under the current legal climate in the US; along with race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. :~ There is actually no need to ask how old you are and risk a discrimination lawsuit if you are not chosen for the job, for whatever reason. When you say you have 20 years experience there is no question as to your age! :rolleyes:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesA long time ago I trimmed my resume so it only showed the last ten years of work. I've gone to a couple of interviews where they seemed taken aback by my grey hairs (those that are left, that is). I am sure I have also had interviews that wouldn't have happened if I said I had been writing code sonce 1962. Get the interview! That's the big step. How you do after that depends on how you sell yourself. I'm still working. JimT