Pathetic...
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The probelm with 'Piss Christ' was not the "art" itself. The problem is that it was funded by government grants that would have been of questionable constitutionality had it been a work of art promoting rather than denegrating religion. That is why most people felt compelled to protest, as well they should have. It is representative of a new class of modern political tyranny.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Well, I dunno about in the US, but in Australia, we could care less if American tax payers paid for it. The protest here was entirely that the church was being attacked. And, all it did was make the gallery money. I wouldn't be surprised if they send press releases to churches, to get the protest rolling. And you have a real problem, if your government is going to fund the arts ( which I think it should ), and if you defend freedom of speech ( which you should ), but you'd deny an artist the right to freedom of expression if they take a goverment grant. Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Well, I dunno about in the US, but in Australia, we could care less if American tax payers paid for it. The protest here was entirely that the church was being attacked. And, all it did was make the gallery money. I wouldn't be surprised if they send press releases to churches, to get the protest rolling. And you have a real problem, if your government is going to fund the arts ( which I think it should ), and if you defend freedom of speech ( which you should ), but you'd deny an artist the right to freedom of expression if they take a goverment grant. Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
And you have a real problem, if your government is going to fund the arts ( which I think it should ), and if you defend freedom of speech ( which you should ), but you'd deny an artist the right to freedom of expression if they take a goverment grant. Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
But that is a complete mischaracterization of the issue (in line with the medias interpretation of the criticism). The issue isn't "Christians trying to suppress freedom of expression which they find offensive". The issue is the government overtly sanctioning one form of expression while overtly inhibiting another. Given modern interpretations of separation of church and state, if someone had applied for a NEA grant to produce art promoting, say, a Baptist world view, or a catholic world view, rather than a secular, and overtly anti-religioius world view, not only would the NEA probably not have provided the grant, but if they had, the very constitutionality of doing so would have immediately been questioned. IOW, the government would have actively surpressed that kind of 'freedom of expression' while happily funding expression intended as an attack on religion. If the government is going to actively surpress expressions of religious faith in the form of art on public grounds, then it should also do so for expressions of anti-religious intent.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
Because it wan't a "pile of crap". It was a highly touted, award wining entry. To suggest that Christians should merely always 'look the other way' and ignore overt assualts on their beliefs is to suggest that they, in fact, have no freedom of speech or expression.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Diego Moita wrote:
the real crypt of Jesus was found 27 years ago in Jerusalem, along with his wife and sons:
This is just funny. There's a real industry in this sort of stuff nowadays. Are we to believe it said 'Jesus' over the door, and that there was only ever one guy with this name ?
Diego Moita wrote:
Even if it is true, does it really matter?
Actually, it really, really does. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then the central platform of Christianity is gone, and it all becomes a sham. That's really the point, I suspect.
Diego Moita wrote:
are mass market movie documentaries a suitable media for the debate of such a heated topic?
No, but it's a real money tree.
Diego Moita wrote:
Oh well, I guess he is just trying the old trick of creating hype through scandal
Absolutely. Sadly, Christians are an easy target. Some artist years ago created a sculpture called 'piss christ'. It was a perspex box, with a statue of the crucifixtion, and it was full of the artists urine. Man, that caused a stir, there were protests and everything. Personally, if people are gullibile enough to look at that, the guy can pee where he likes.,
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Absolutely. Sadly, Christians are an easy target.
Christianity is an easy target, and so it should be. The Bible is considered the most reliable source of historial information availiable by any serious academic researching the western mediterainian region at and around the time of Christ. There is nothing hidden or mystical about Christianity it's histroy and belief system is there for all to see and criticize. Christians are an easy target. I agree, those that don't understand the gospel and judge and condemn leave themseves, and others, open for acusation of hypocracy and worse. This is indeed sad. Christians are to lead people to Christ not condemn them to hell.
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Christian Graus wrote:
And you have a real problem, if your government is going to fund the arts ( which I think it should ), and if you defend freedom of speech ( which you should ), but you'd deny an artist the right to freedom of expression if they take a goverment grant. Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
But that is a complete mischaracterization of the issue (in line with the medias interpretation of the criticism). The issue isn't "Christians trying to suppress freedom of expression which they find offensive". The issue is the government overtly sanctioning one form of expression while overtly inhibiting another. Given modern interpretations of separation of church and state, if someone had applied for a NEA grant to produce art promoting, say, a Baptist world view, or a catholic world view, rather than a secular, and overtly anti-religioius world view, not only would the NEA probably not have provided the grant, but if they had, the very constitutionality of doing so would have immediately been questioned. IOW, the government would have actively surpressed that kind of 'freedom of expression' while happily funding expression intended as an attack on religion. If the government is going to actively surpress expressions of religious faith in the form of art on public grounds, then it should also do so for expressions of anti-religious intent.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why not just let the fact that it's a pile of crap define it's worth, instead of creating controversy, which is what the artist seeks ?
Because it wan't a "pile of crap". It was a highly touted, award wining entry. To suggest that Christians should merely always 'look the other way' and ignore overt assualts on their beliefs is to suggest that they, in fact, have no freedom of speech or expression.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
If the government is going to actively surpress expressions of religious faith in the form of art on public grounds, then it should also do so for expressions of anti-religious intent.
That may be true.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because it wan't a "pile of crap".
It was a jar of piss. That it was award winning shows that art is retarded.
Stan Shannon wrote:
To suggest that Christians should merely always 'look the other way' and ignore overt assualts on their beliefs is to suggest that they, in fact, have no freedom of speech or expression.
No, they have the freedom to protest, I just wish they had the brains to not do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If the government is going to actively surpress expressions of religious faith in the form of art on public grounds, then it should also do so for expressions of anti-religious intent.
That may be true.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because it wan't a "pile of crap".
It was a jar of piss. That it was award winning shows that art is retarded.
Stan Shannon wrote:
To suggest that Christians should merely always 'look the other way' and ignore overt assualts on their beliefs is to suggest that they, in fact, have no freedom of speech or expression.
No, they have the freedom to protest, I just wish they had the brains to not do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
No, they have the freedom to protest, I just wish they had the brains to not do so.
I disagree. To tell any group that they should just ignore something and it will go away is exactly the same thing as telling gays that they should stay in the closet. The right to protest is often the obligation to protest.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
No, they have the freedom to protest, I just wish they had the brains to not do so.
I disagree. To tell any group that they should just ignore something and it will go away is exactly the same thing as telling gays that they should stay in the closet. The right to protest is often the obligation to protest.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
To tell any group that they should just ignore something and it will go away
So Islam was justified in its protest of the cartoons?
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
Of course not. Some guy can talk about lynching gays in congress, that's freedom. This is different, obviously.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Stan Shannon wrote:
To tell any group that they should just ignore something and it will go away
So Islam was justified in its protest of the cartoons?
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
Josh Gray wrote:
So Islam was justified in its protest of the cartoons?
Of course it was justified, if that is what got them upset. The fact that that is what it takes to get them upset when so much greater evil is done in the name of their religion is what was objectionable.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
the stupidity of Christians.
as exhibited by?
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. dennisd45: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced dennisd45 (the NAMBLA supporter) wrote: I know exactly what it means. So shut up you mother killing baby raper.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Absolutely. Sadly, Christians are an easy target.
Christianity is an easy target, and so it should be. The Bible is considered the most reliable source of historial information availiable by any serious academic researching the western mediterainian region at and around the time of Christ. There is nothing hidden or mystical about Christianity it's histroy and belief system is there for all to see and criticize. Christians are an easy target. I agree, those that don't understand the gospel and judge and condemn leave themseves, and others, open for acusation of hypocracy and worse. This is indeed sad. Christians are to lead people to Christ not condemn them to hell.
I think you mean Eastern Mediterranean, nothing in the Bible took place in Gibraltar.
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Movie director James ("Titanic") Cameron is producing a new documentary where he claims that the real crypt of Jesus was found 27 years ago in Jerusalem, along with his wife and sons: http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/jesus_tales_from_the_crypt.html[^] :rolleyes: Even if it is true, does it really matter? Christianity is not about any "real Jesus" anymore. All religions are systems of beliefs where logic and scientific investigation doesn't apply or work. It is silly to believe that studying the real, historic Jesus will have any important meaning to Christians. And from a secular point of view: are mass market movie documentaries a suitable media for the debate of such a heated topic? Oh well, I guess he is just trying the old trick of creating hype through scandal. Silly of me to think that movie directors would really care about archeology and history.
'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'
GK ChestertonDiego Moita wrote:
...where he claims that the real crypt of Jesus was found 27 years ago in Jerusalem
Didn't you know this until today? I know these discoveries from 1981... It is clear, you should not spend so many time near computer and start read some books... :laugh::laugh: Please, don't throw with "1"'s... I'm angry, and I wait from those researchers to find soon the thomb of God, because, this is logically the next step.
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Josh Gray wrote:
So Islam was justified in its protest of the cartoons?
Of course it was justified, if that is what got them upset. The fact that that is what it takes to get them upset when so much greater evil is done in the name of their religion is what was objectionable.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
The fact that that is what it takes to get them upset when so much greater evil is done in the name of their religion is what was objectionable.
And were talking about a container of piss. Who gives a fuck? Is there no greater issue in modern christianity? how about priests and little boys for example? Or how about that wacho yank who was paying teenage boys to blow him for drugs?
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The fact that that is what it takes to get them upset when so much greater evil is done in the name of their religion is what was objectionable.
And were talking about a container of piss. Who gives a fuck? Is there no greater issue in modern christianity? how about priests and little boys for example? Or how about that wacho yank who was paying teenage boys to blow him for drugs?
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
Josh Gray wrote:
how about priests and little boys for example?
I'm actually pretty sure that is being dealt with.
Josh Gray wrote:
Or how about that wacho yank who was paying teenage boys to blow him for drugs?
Which one?
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Josh Gray wrote:
how about priests and little boys for example?
I'm actually pretty sure that is being dealt with.
Josh Gray wrote:
Or how about that wacho yank who was paying teenage boys to blow him for drugs?
Which one?
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'm actually pretty sure that is being dealt with.
yeah paying off victims to keep it out of the media and protect the prists is dealing with it!
Stan Shannon wrote:
Which one?
Theres more than one? Figures :) Ted Haggard There just a couple of examples off the top of my head. Your point seemed to be that its ok for christians to protest the container of piss but not for islam to protest the cartoon because they have bigger issues to deal with. Im making the point that christanity has its own issues that are of more importance than a jar of wizz
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I'm actually pretty sure that is being dealt with.
yeah paying off victims to keep it out of the media and protect the prists is dealing with it!
Stan Shannon wrote:
Which one?
Theres more than one? Figures :) Ted Haggard There just a couple of examples off the top of my head. Your point seemed to be that its ok for christians to protest the container of piss but not for islam to protest the cartoon because they have bigger issues to deal with. Im making the point that christanity has its own issues that are of more importance than a jar of wizz
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
But the issue isn't a jar of piss. The issue is that federal tax money paid for that jar and for the piss that filled it. Yet the same government overtly suppresses similar funds for promotion of religious faith. That is a crucial issue within the context of American society.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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But the issue isn't a jar of piss. The issue is that federal tax money paid for that jar and for the piss that filled it. Yet the same government overtly suppresses similar funds for promotion of religious faith. That is a crucial issue within the context of American society.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
The issue is that federal tax money paid for that jar and for the piss that filled it. Yet the same government overtly suppresses similar funds for promotion of religious faith.
I fail to see any relation between government support for the arts and government support or suppression for the promotion of faith. Im sure the government has contibuted to many many equally crappy works of art, the only reason we are discussing this is because it offended a large portion of your community. Should the government support of the arts be conditional on the content of the art produced? or should the supported artist have the freedom to create whatever they like?
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect