Benefits of atheism

[Christian Graus]

Ilíon wrote:

One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter.

That's hardly the point. The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Ilion]

I'm blunt. Except when I'm not.

[Ilion]

Ilíon: "One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter." Christian Graus: "That's hardly the point." But that is the point. AND, you're taking the last bit of what I said out of the context of what I said and then reading it far too literally.

Christian Graus wrote:

The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.

Of course, and I didn't dispute any of that. However, you followed the above idea with this statement: "I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example." And this statement is literally not true. One *is* free to decide that it's moral to kill kill people and take their stuff. That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so. One is as free to lie to oneself as to others. But the truth remains what it is regardless of the lie one has decided to tell oneself.

[Ssswamii]

:) That seems to be your posting style, at least here in the Lounge and on my blog as well. :) Take care, God bless.

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango

[Christian Graus]

Wow, this is convoluted.

Ilíon wrote:

That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so.

Exactly my point, NO-ONE is free to decide what is moral, society will enforce it's values, if your values deviate too far from the norm.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[John Carson]

Christian Graus wrote:

Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality.

A very curious claim. My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.

Christian Graus wrote:

Colin Angus Mackay wrote: I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. No-one just 'makes up their own mind' on these things, they respond to social pressures and mores, be it in a church, or just in society as a whole. What is moral is generally accepted, with some slight variation. I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.

There is a strong social consensus on some matters, but very divided opinion on others, where it is entirely possible and realistic to make up your own mind. I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise. People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind. Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre. Much of the debate inside the modern church is between those who wish to think independently --- and who frequently go through tortured Biblical interpretations to try to reconcile their beliefs with the Biblical text --- and those who want to follow (at least selected parts of) the Bible uncritically. Inbetween are those who are in a permanent state of a crisis of conscience over whether to follow their own concepts of right and wrong and those that they find in the Bible. There are plenty of Christians, for example, who cannot see any reason why homosexuality should be judged sinful and subject to penalties, whether imposed by society or by the church through policies of exclusion, but who nevertheless feel obliged to follow anti-homosexual Christian teachings on the matter.

John Carson

[leckey 0]

ish.

_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.

[Christian Graus]

The Crusades, the Third Reich and the KKK all claimed to be doing the work of Christ.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[leckey 0]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Personally, I do not care what you believe as long as it DOES NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE. If you believe flying monkeys will save your soul, fine. What the non-religious need to keep in mind is that for many of us religion does bring us comfort. I personally find praying relaxing and Torah study interesting. Obviously I am not strict on the rules of my religion (I just had shrimp) but the basic structure has been incorporated into who I am and makes me happy. What the relgious need to keep in mind is everyone is free to believe what they want. Religion should never be forced upon anyone. All the major religions promote loving everyone. Teach the other person if they are truly interested in your religion but do not condemn them because they don't agree with your beliefs.

_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.

[Stan Shannon]

Yep, thats riddled all right.

Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.

-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come

[Stan Shannon]

leckey wrote:

Religion should never be forced upon anyone.

Could you enforce that principle?

Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about

[Stan Shannon]

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

Why give you the satisfaction?

If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all.

Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about

[Christian Graus]

John Carson wrote:

My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.

Are you serious ?

John Carson wrote:

I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise.

I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always. Biblical morality is rarely if ever out of step with general morality in a way that should cause any serious conflict.

John Carson wrote:

People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind.

That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.

John Carson wrote:

Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre.

In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says. The KKK, for example.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Ilion]

We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.

[Ilion]

Christian, You're confused; you're not thinking clearly. Is it any wonder you see convoluted where there was none? The consequences which may (or may not) immediately follow from one's attempt to "define" one's own "private morality" are quite a different matter from one's freedom to do so. We are all free to decide to believe any old stupid thing we may want to believe. But, that doesn't change reality and that doesn't make consequences go away.

[Ilion]

Ah, I didn't recognize you. You too.

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...

-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8

[Christian Graus]

Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ? It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Christian Graus]

So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )