Benefits of atheism

[John Carson]

Ilíon wrote:

Really. Even in the best of circumstances, life generally gets "worse" as one ages. But, if one happens to be a European Infidel at this particular time in history, it very much looks as though life will soon be "worse" no matter what one's age. Wouldn't it be so much "better" to make the "rational" decision right now?

About as rational as putting on extra clothing now in the expectation that it will get cold tomorrow.

John Carson

[Christian Graus]

John Carson wrote:

As a general response, you seem to think that the test here is whether the item applies to you or conforms to your understanding of what Christianity is.

As a general response, most of this does not apply to what most Christians think Christianity is, it's a straw man, as much a bunch of self congratulation as any group think that goes on in any church.

John Carson wrote:

It is an exaggeration and one-sided but not patently false. Lots of people who believe in God are not confident of their salvation.

But, surely, it's at least as true to say that many non-Christians fear death ?

John Carson wrote:

yeah, I know you don't think Catholics are Christians

It's plainly a seperate religion, with it's own beliefs.

John Carson wrote:

It is one-sided, but you can certainly argue that churches spend a lot of money on purposes that at least an atheist wouldn't value.

Sure - the government also spends a lot on things no-one would value, that doesn't mean they never do any good with any of their money. It's beyond one-sided, it's plain ludicrous, when most charities are 'christian'.

John Carson wrote:

GR

I don't know of anyone outside of Catholics who claim that assisted suicide is an unforgivable sin. The US is full of religious nut jobs, I will grant you, and thinks like abortion become far more of a religious issue there than anywhere else, for example.

John Carson wrote:

There are plenty of Creationists in the US who are prepared to say those who disagree with them are not Christians or that their Christianity is in question, regardless of how Christian the opponents appear on other grounds.

OK, so you dispute the original statement too. It says I am not free to think for myself, you accept that Christians do exactly that, even if some in the churches disagree with them.

John Carson wrote:

I presume that you don't dispute that Christians have prayers and ceremonies. There is also the question of what is meant by sacrifices. Catholics have Lent, for example.

We pray, but it's pathetic to say what a relif i is not to pray. I don't like playing football, does that

[Christian Graus]

OK, well, I responded to John. The statements in the original post are good for a laugh, but most have no basis in reality.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Ilion]

Thomas George wrote:

But the church is led by the pope; and he is never wrong (papal infallibility).

You have no idea what you're talking about. And if you wanted to know what you're talking about, you could find out in seconds.

[John Carson]

Christian Graus wrote:

But, surely, it's at least as true to say that many non-Christians fear death ?

Sure. But just as you say "I don't feel that way", I am sure the author would say "I personally am not afraid of death" --- or at least not of what happens in any afterlife --- and credit this to his lack of religious belief.

Christian Graus wrote:

It's plainly a seperate religion, with it's own beliefs.

It is not plain to most people and certainly would not have been plain to the author of the list.

Christian Graus wrote:

Sure - the government also spends a lot on things no-one would value, that doesn't mean they never do any good with any of their money. It's beyond one-sided, it's plain ludicrous, when most charities are 'christian'.

One of the weaker points on the list, I grant you.

Christian Graus wrote:

I don't know of anyone outside of Catholics who claim that assisted suicide is an unforgivable sin.

Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin. Almost none are Catholics (so they don't accept that any sin is unforgivable). I think that is a pretty mainstream position.

Christian Graus wrote:

It says I am not free to think for myself, you accept that Christians do exactly that, even if some in the churches disagree with them.

Some Christians, of course. I acknowledged that in my first post and subsequently.

Christian Graus wrote:

We pray, but it's pathetic to say what a relif i is not to pray. I don't like playing football, does that prove people who play football are wasting their time, or not enjoying it ?

I have heard plenty of non-football players or non-X people suggesting that X people are wasting their time. From an atheist perspective, talking to someone who isn't there is plainly not rational behaviour. No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.

Christian Graus wrote:

What Catholics do is irrelevant.

No it isn't.

Christian Graus wrote:

Again, because I find value in something, doesn't make you better off for not seeing value in it.<

[Ilion]

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...

Clearly, you don't comprehend what *you* are saying. edit: But then, you are a zombie, aren't you? I mean, if your religion were really the truth about reality, we'd all be zombies, wouldn't we? If I am deluded, then it doesn't matter that I'm delued and it doesn't matter that you are undeluded. Nothing at all would matter or could possibly matter if the world were really as you claim (sans "proof" mind you, since I know how important "proof" is to you folk) that it is. If reality were really as you claim it is, then you are going to die shortly, as will I, and that's the end of it. And shortly after that, the entire human species will die. And not too long after that, the sun will vaporize the earth and there won't even be any evidence left. As though there would be anyone to care even if there were any evidence left. If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything. And here you are trying to act all superior because you "know" the stupid, pointless truth about pointless, futile existence. It would seem to me that either you don't really know the truth about reality or you don't have the courage of your convictions.

[Ilion]

Ah, I see that the children don't like reality as it really is. Shame on me for telling someone he's ignorant when he's ignorant (in this case about the Catholic doctrine a 'papal infallibility'). Why, next thing you know, I might tell some who is ignorant about Galileo that he's ignorant about Galileo. Goodness, you never know, I might clue someone in that he's ignorant about that silly little ol' "But we'll sail off the edge of the world" tall tale (which is exactly what it was). Or the Crusades. Or the "suppression of 'science'" myth. Or ... on and on. But, in the Church of Invincible Ignorance, it is considered such bad form to make the votaries aware of their stunning and willing ignorance.

[Lost User]

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...

Mate, we all need to hold hands and pray for understanding ;)

System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect

[Al Beback]

Ilíon wrote:

Haven't you noticed that, as Europe is so clearly demonstrating, 'atheism' is a one-way ticket to national/cultural suicide.

Is this your opinion? Please enlighten me on the ways people who don't live their lives according to superstitious nonsense are hurting Europe. Also, do you miss the tooth fairy? Do you think you'd be better off continuing to believe in the tooth fairy, or do you prefer knowing the truth?

[Lost User]

Ilíon wrote:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

That is what the Muslims tell me, when I point out the religion-sanctioned gender discrimination. In this case, I must really have no idea. I have been a Catholic for only 34 years now. Even during my short life-span, I have seen the Church organization descend to new lows. The church does not seem to care about Jesus's messages unless it is sermon-time. The problem with all religions today is that they cannot live up to the high standards that they have set for their followers. When an error is made, it takes a great deal of time to accept it -- after several efforts to cover them up. (For example: the child molestation scandal in the USA. The bigger problem than the child molestation was the effort to cover it up with the blessings from Rome. The church was more concerned about its priests than the children who may come in their contact later on.) Coming back to the point: Papal infallibility is a dogma that I summarize as follows. It says that even though the *holy spirit* works all the time to guide the Pope, he will still make mistakes (i.e., commit sins). But, since the mistake was made under the guidance of the *holy spirit*, he is not liable for the sin committed. What does this mean? God will not hold the Pope accountable for his actions because God himself did those? All these arguments have nothing to do with what Jesus did or said. I believe that Jesus existed. I have experienced that his messages about how to lead life gives anyone a better enriching life experience. I don't think that the Church organizations have a monopoly on the message of Christ, or that his message derives its value from the miracles he performed, his bachelor status or his rising from the dead. Due to that reason, I don't have any interest in Mr. Cameroon's work. Thomas

-------- Micrologic Networks, India

[Judah Gabriel Himango]

Weird, my name just changed to Swamii? CodeProject is acting weird...

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: 4 Exorcism Psalms from the Dead Sea Scrolls The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango

[Ilion]

I'm not a Catholic, and even I know you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you try Googling the phrase "papal infallibility" and pay attention to more "official" sites, such as NewAdvent.

[Tim Craig]

Christian Graus wrote:

The statements in the original post are good for a laugh, but most have no basis in reality.

I guess I could say the same thing about christianity.

The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.

[Anna Jayne Metcalfe]

Colin Angus Mackay wrote:

10. I don't sit there like a bump on a log waiting for god to rescue me. I don't expect god to rig the lottery for me. I don't take silly risks expecting god to protect me from my folly.

Actually that's one of the most fundamental things I've learnt since I came to Faith...don't just sit there waiting to be helped - get out there and do something about it, and you'll be given whatever help you need, when you need it. :rose: Anyone who expects God to "rig the lottery for them" is in for a well deserved disappointment. That's not Faith - it's gullibility and freeloading!

Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

[Anna Jayne Metcalfe]

Amen to that. 5. :rose:

Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

Ilíon wrote:

If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.

That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man. You are also full of shit. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullshit based on even older bullshit. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.

-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

I'm sorry. I did my best! I just couldn't wrap all that tinfoil around my head. :sigh:

-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören

[Christian Graus]

John Carson wrote:

and

But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.

John Carson wrote:

Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin.

OK, if you've taken a poll, I'll give you this one.

John Carson wrote:

No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.

The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.

John Carson wrote:

No it isn't.

OK, I accept that if the person who wrote this was exposed only to Catholicism, that would color his percption. Just like someone who only ever knew JWs, would have a different view. My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians. It's as sensible as saying 'All Christians need to knock on doors for a certain time per week ( because JWs do ), or all Christians wear red undies ( I believe Mormons do this ). It's not that different to saying that all athiests vote Democrat. Some may visibly do so, that does not mean they all do.

John Carson wrote:

Nor does the fact that you find value in something necessarily mean that there is value in it.

Of course. I am not the one making generalisations.

John Carson wrote:

The point is that there is a huge pattern of cover-ups in the Catholic church and one can make a good argument that that pattern derives at least in part because of a reluctance to question the goodness of a "man of God" and a belief on the part of the Catholic hierarchy that prayer and repentance and all those usual Christian things were an effective way of dealing with the problem. Just talking about the issue is something many Christians are extremely uncomfortable with.

No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church. A lot of Christians are especially uncomfortable because of things like this post, that infer that all Christians are in on it.

[Christian Graus]

You're free to your opinion. Goodness knows that most athiests are far more closed minded and dogmatic than any Christian. I find people who take these sort of meaningless pot shots sad. What dos it prove ? Your beliefs do not change my experience, an the reverse is also true. I was commenting on how bigotred and meaningless the original post was. You've said nothing to change my view on this, you've simply mindlessly expressed your own bias.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ?

Reject what? Hell, I was agreeing with you. That is certainly a history riddled with violence.

Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about