Benefits of atheism

[Christian Graus]

John Carson wrote:

and

But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.

John Carson wrote:

Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin.

OK, if you've taken a poll, I'll give you this one.

John Carson wrote:

No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.

The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.

John Carson wrote:

No it isn't.

OK, I accept that if the person who wrote this was exposed only to Catholicism, that would color his percption. Just like someone who only ever knew JWs, would have a different view. My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians. It's as sensible as saying 'All Christians need to knock on doors for a certain time per week ( because JWs do ), or all Christians wear red undies ( I believe Mormons do this ). It's not that different to saying that all athiests vote Democrat. Some may visibly do so, that does not mean they all do.

John Carson wrote:

Nor does the fact that you find value in something necessarily mean that there is value in it.

Of course. I am not the one making generalisations.

John Carson wrote:

The point is that there is a huge pattern of cover-ups in the Catholic church and one can make a good argument that that pattern derives at least in part because of a reluctance to question the goodness of a "man of God" and a belief on the part of the Catholic hierarchy that prayer and repentance and all those usual Christian things were an effective way of dealing with the problem. Just talking about the issue is something many Christians are extremely uncomfortable with.

No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church. A lot of Christians are especially uncomfortable because of things like this post, that infer that all Christians are in on it.

[Christian Graus]

You're free to your opinion. Goodness knows that most athiests are far more closed minded and dogmatic than any Christian. I find people who take these sort of meaningless pot shots sad. What dos it prove ? Your beliefs do not change my experience, an the reverse is also true. I was commenting on how bigotred and meaningless the original post was. You've said nothing to change my view on this, you've simply mindlessly expressed your own bias.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ?

Reject what? Hell, I was agreeing with you. That is certainly a history riddled with violence.

Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about

[Ilion]

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man.

Once again, let me state the truth that you are having difficulty grasping:

If I am deluded, then it doesn't matter that I'm delued and it doesn't matter that you are undeluded. Nothing at all would matter or could possibly matter if the world were really as you claim (sans "proof" mind you, since I know how important "proof" is to you folk) that it is. If reality were really as you claim it is, then you are going to die shortly, as will I, and that's the end of it. And shortly after that, the entire human species will die. And not too long after that, the sun will vaporize the earth and there won't even be any evidence left. As though there would be anyone to care even if there were any evidence left. If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.

What is this "finding meaning" you speak of? Meaninglessness. It's a pretense to help you hide from the utter meaninglessness of reality if reality really were as you insist it is. You can "find" all the "meaning" you want. It doesn't matter one whit. You will die, and your "meaning" will die with you. And then everyone who knows you will die, and all memory of your "meaning" will die, too. There will be nothing left of your personal "meaning." And then, eventually, your society/nation will die. And then, eventually, your species will die. And any non-personal "meaning" that your life might have generated will be dead and gone, too. You *claim* to be bravely facing up to reality as it really is. *That* is reality ... as you insist it is ... and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye. This is the "best" "answer" you can come up with in response to being told the truth:

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

You are also full of sh*t. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullsh*t based on even older bullsh*t. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.

The "best" "answer" you can come up with is rail at me for understanding the meaning of what you insist is the truth.

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

Ilíon wrote:

and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye.

What the fuck do you know?

-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören

[Ilion]

This isn't about what I know. This is about *reason* and *logic* I pointed out to you the logical out-working of what you insist is the truth about reality and your response is irrational (and ineffective) personal invective which does not and never can address the LOGIC I presented you. Now, as for my statement that:

You *claim* to be bravely facing up to reality as it really is. *That* is reality ... as you insist it is ... and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye.

That's way too simple. I too am a human; I do understand a thing or two about humans by the very fact that I am one. It's self evidently true that you do not have the guts to look reality (as you assert reality really is) in the eye; for, if you did have the guts, you wouldn't be trying to call me stupid, or worse, for making you aware of the logical out-woking of your assertions about the nature of reality.

[73Zeppelin]

Ilíon wrote:

By the way, knowing how important predictions are to those who claim to have a "scientific" mind-set, what is happening to the European nations

Haha. Athiests are a minority in Europe. Looks like the Catholics and Protestants are the guilty parties. Looks like religion is the one-way ticket to cultural suicide, actually.

---

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

He's good with words, I'll give him that. But so is at least one monkey out of a billion as well. Might not be long until we see Hamlet posted here...

[John Carson]

Christian Graus wrote:

But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.

Yeah, he is exaggerating.

Christian Graus wrote:

The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.

Well, the list was introduced with the remark that Christians say that believing in God is a good thing to do even if the belief is incorrect (because it gives comfort etc.). Thus the author was saying: oh well, two can play at that game.

Christian Graus wrote:

My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians.

Of course. The list is polemical rather than scholarly. I didn't agree with your original characterisation of it as a joke and still don't, but it is certainly not serious in the sense of being a balanced appraisal of Christianity. It is highlighting negative features seem among some who claim to be Christians, which may or may not be representative.

Christian Graus wrote:

No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church.

Of course. And if you want to say that plenty of atheists are ignorant, irrational, corrupt, vindictive, selfish, dishonest and all the rest, then you are right. Nevertheless, it is of some interest that this has been a huge problem in the Catholic church without there being, as far as we know, anything like the same problem in, for example, the public school system.

John Carson

[Ilion]

As you've probably figured out by now, I don't care for illogic. If I'm trying to discuss something with someone who refuses (or, perhaps, is merely unable) to think/argue logically, I generally respond in one of two ways: 1) I just walk away, rather than waste another minute of my time, 2) turn my attention on the illogic, mercilessly (I am, after all, a savage).