Benefits of atheism
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Ilíon wrote:
You have no idea what you're talking about.
That is what the Muslims tell me, when I point out the religion-sanctioned gender discrimination. In this case, I must really have no idea. I have been a Catholic for only 34 years now. Even during my short life-span, I have seen the Church organization descend to new lows. The church does not seem to care about Jesus's messages unless it is sermon-time. The problem with all religions today is that they cannot live up to the high standards that they have set for their followers. When an error is made, it takes a great deal of time to accept it -- after several efforts to cover them up. (For example: the child molestation scandal in the USA. The bigger problem than the child molestation was the effort to cover it up with the blessings from Rome. The church was more concerned about its priests than the children who may come in their contact later on.) Coming back to the point: Papal infallibility is a dogma that I summarize as follows. It says that even though the *holy spirit* works all the time to guide the Pope, he will still make mistakes (i.e., commit sins). But, since the mistake was made under the guidance of the *holy spirit*, he is not liable for the sin committed. What does this mean? God will not hold the Pope accountable for his actions because God himself did those? All these arguments have nothing to do with what Jesus did or said. I believe that Jesus existed. I have experienced that his messages about how to lead life gives anyone a better enriching life experience. I don't think that the Church organizations have a monopoly on the message of Christ, or that his message derives its value from the miracles he performed, his bachelor status or his rising from the dead. Due to that reason, I don't have any interest in Mr. Cameroon's work. Thomas
-------- Micrologic Networks, India
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OK, well, I responded to John. The statements in the original post are good for a laugh, but most have no basis in reality.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
The statements in the original post are good for a laugh, but most have no basis in reality.
I guess I could say the same thing about christianity.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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Found on the internet: Christians like to argue the benefits of being a Christian independent of the truth of its assertions. Here is the other side of the coin. 1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. 2. I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. I am not compelled by the notions of ignorant folk who lived in the bronze age. I need not fear punishment from some sky god if my choices don't match those of the priests. 3. I am free to donate my money to charities that actually do good works rather than to a church that spends it on nebulous "godly" purposes such as gilt for the Vatican or fine embroidery for priestly robes. 4. If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal. 5. I am free to inquire into any aspect or reality or science, and to make up my own mind on what is most likely true, and to change my mind. 6. I am free to enjoy any sexual activity I please that does not harm others without fear of some cosmic meat axe. 7. I don't have the strain of pretending to believe lies and unsupported articles of faith. I can be completely truthful. I speak for myself. I don't have to pretend I that agree totally with some ancient, obsolete, rigid system of beliefs. 8. When something goes wrong, I don't torment myself with the erroneous notion god is out to get me. I look at the rational causes of my predicament -- things I can correct. 9. I don't waste time and effort in useless prayers, sacrifices and ceremonies. “Praying is like a rocking chair — it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.” ~ Gypsy Rose Lee 10. I don't sit there like a bump on a log waiting for god to rescue me. I don't expect god to rig the lottery for me. I don't take silly risks expecting god to protect me from my folly. 11. I talk to real friends, not an imaginary Jesus who can offer no more help than talking to myself. 12. I don't expose my kids to pedophiles an
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
10. I don't sit there like a bump on a log waiting for god to rescue me. I don't expect god to rig the lottery for me. I don't take silly risks expecting god to protect me from my folly.
Actually that's one of the most fundamental things I've learnt since I came to Faith...don't just sit there waiting to be helped - get out there and do something about it, and you'll be given whatever help you need, when you need it. :rose: Anyone who expects God to "rig the lottery for them" is in for a well deserved disappointment. That's not Faith - it's gullibility and freeloading!
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I've said it before and I will say it again. Personally, I do not care what you believe as long as it DOES NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE. If you believe flying monkeys will save your soul, fine. What the non-religious need to keep in mind is that for many of us religion does bring us comfort. I personally find praying relaxing and Torah study interesting. Obviously I am not strict on the rules of my religion (I just had shrimp) but the basic structure has been incorporated into who I am and makes me happy. What the relgious need to keep in mind is everyone is free to believe what they want. Religion should never be forced upon anyone. All the major religions promote loving everyone. Teach the other person if they are truly interested in your religion but do not condemn them because they don't agree with your beliefs.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
Amen to that. 5. :rose:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
Clearly, you don't comprehend what *you* are saying. edit: But then, you are a zombie, aren't you? I mean, if your religion were really the truth about reality, we'd all be zombies, wouldn't we? If I am deluded, then it doesn't matter that I'm delued and it doesn't matter that you are undeluded. Nothing at all would matter or could possibly matter if the world were really as you claim (sans "proof" mind you, since I know how important "proof" is to you folk) that it is. If reality were really as you claim it is, then you are going to die shortly, as will I, and that's the end of it. And shortly after that, the entire human species will die. And not too long after that, the sun will vaporize the earth and there won't even be any evidence left. As though there would be anyone to care even if there were any evidence left. If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything. And here you are trying to act all superior because you "know" the stupid, pointless truth about pointless, futile existence. It would seem to me that either you don't really know the truth about reality or you don't have the courage of your convictions.
Ilíon wrote:
If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.
That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man. You are also full of shit. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullshit based on even older bullshit. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.
-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
SAY IT AIN'T SO, JOERGEN! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!! :-D
- F "You are really weird." - Kyle, age 16
I'm sorry. I did my best! I just couldn't wrap all that tinfoil around my head. :sigh:
-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören
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Christian Graus wrote:
But, surely, it's at least as true to say that many non-Christians fear death ?
Sure. But just as you say "I don't feel that way", I am sure the author would say "I personally am not afraid of death" --- or at least not of what happens in any afterlife --- and credit this to his lack of religious belief.
Christian Graus wrote:
It's plainly a seperate religion, with it's own beliefs.
It is not plain to most people and certainly would not have been plain to the author of the list.
Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - the government also spends a lot on things no-one would value, that doesn't mean they never do any good with any of their money. It's beyond one-sided, it's plain ludicrous, when most charities are 'christian'.
One of the weaker points on the list, I grant you.
Christian Graus wrote:
I don't know of anyone outside of Catholics who claim that assisted suicide is an unforgivable sin.
Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin. Almost none are Catholics (so they don't accept that any sin is unforgivable). I think that is a pretty mainstream position.
Christian Graus wrote:
It says I am not free to think for myself, you accept that Christians do exactly that, even if some in the churches disagree with them.
Some Christians, of course. I acknowledged that in my first post and subsequently.
Christian Graus wrote:
We pray, but it's pathetic to say what a relif i is not to pray. I don't like playing football, does that prove people who play football are wasting their time, or not enjoying it ?
I have heard plenty of non-football players or non-X people suggesting that X people are wasting their time. From an atheist perspective, talking to someone who isn't there is plainly not rational behaviour. No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.
Christian Graus wrote:
What Catholics do is irrelevant.
No it isn't.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, because I find value in something, doesn't make you better off for not seeing value in it.<
John Carson wrote:
and
But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.
John Carson wrote:
Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin.
OK, if you've taken a poll, I'll give you this one.
John Carson wrote:
No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.
The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.
John Carson wrote:
No it isn't.
OK, I accept that if the person who wrote this was exposed only to Catholicism, that would color his percption. Just like someone who only ever knew JWs, would have a different view. My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians. It's as sensible as saying 'All Christians need to knock on doors for a certain time per week ( because JWs do ), or all Christians wear red undies ( I believe Mormons do this ). It's not that different to saying that all athiests vote Democrat. Some may visibly do so, that does not mean they all do.
John Carson wrote:
Nor does the fact that you find value in something necessarily mean that there is value in it.
Of course. I am not the one making generalisations.
John Carson wrote:
The point is that there is a huge pattern of cover-ups in the Catholic church and one can make a good argument that that pattern derives at least in part because of a reluctance to question the goodness of a "man of God" and a belief on the part of the Catholic hierarchy that prayer and repentance and all those usual Christian things were an effective way of dealing with the problem. Just talking about the issue is something many Christians are extremely uncomfortable with.
No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church. A lot of Christians are especially uncomfortable because of things like this post, that infer that all Christians are in on it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The statements in the original post are good for a laugh, but most have no basis in reality.
I guess I could say the same thing about christianity.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
You're free to your opinion. Goodness knows that most athiests are far more closed minded and dogmatic than any Christian. I find people who take these sort of meaningless pot shots sad. What dos it prove ? Your beliefs do not change my experience, an the reverse is also true. I was commenting on how bigotred and meaningless the original post was. You've said nothing to change my view on this, you've simply mindlessly expressed your own bias.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ?
Reject what? Hell, I was agreeing with you. That is certainly a history riddled with violence.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Ilíon wrote:
If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.
That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man. You are also full of shit. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullshit based on even older bullshit. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.
-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man.
Once again, let me state the truth that you are having difficulty grasping:
If I am deluded, then it doesn't matter that I'm delued and it doesn't matter that you are undeluded. Nothing at all would matter or could possibly matter if the world were really as you claim (sans "proof" mind you, since I know how important "proof" is to you folk) that it is. If reality were really as you claim it is, then you are going to die shortly, as will I, and that's the end of it. And shortly after that, the entire human species will die. And not too long after that, the sun will vaporize the earth and there won't even be any evidence left. As though there would be anyone to care even if there were any evidence left. If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.
What is this "finding meaning" you speak of? Meaninglessness. It's a pretense to help you hide from the utter meaninglessness of reality if reality really were as you insist it is. You can "find" all the "meaning" you want. It doesn't matter one whit. You will die, and your "meaning" will die with you. And then everyone who knows you will die, and all memory of your "meaning" will die, too. There will be nothing left of your personal "meaning." And then, eventually, your society/nation will die. And then, eventually, your species will die. And any non-personal "meaning" that your life might have generated will be dead and gone, too. You *claim* to be bravely facing up to reality as it really is. *That* is reality ... as you insist it is ... and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye. This is the "best" "answer" you can come up with in response to being told the truth:
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
You are also full of sh*t. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullsh*t based on even older bullsh*t. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.
The "best" "answer" you can come up with is rail at me for understanding the meaning of what you insist is the truth.
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
That's just because you are too feeble to find the meaning with anything without the eternal threat looming over your head. You are weak man.
Once again, let me state the truth that you are having difficulty grasping:
If I am deluded, then it doesn't matter that I'm delued and it doesn't matter that you are undeluded. Nothing at all would matter or could possibly matter if the world were really as you claim (sans "proof" mind you, since I know how important "proof" is to you folk) that it is. If reality were really as you claim it is, then you are going to die shortly, as will I, and that's the end of it. And shortly after that, the entire human species will die. And not too long after that, the sun will vaporize the earth and there won't even be any evidence left. As though there would be anyone to care even if there were any evidence left. If reality were really as you claim it is, then there is no point to anything.
What is this "finding meaning" you speak of? Meaninglessness. It's a pretense to help you hide from the utter meaninglessness of reality if reality really were as you insist it is. You can "find" all the "meaning" you want. It doesn't matter one whit. You will die, and your "meaning" will die with you. And then everyone who knows you will die, and all memory of your "meaning" will die, too. There will be nothing left of your personal "meaning." And then, eventually, your society/nation will die. And then, eventually, your species will die. And any non-personal "meaning" that your life might have generated will be dead and gone, too. You *claim* to be bravely facing up to reality as it really is. *That* is reality ... as you insist it is ... and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye. This is the "best" "answer" you can come up with in response to being told the truth:
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
You are also full of sh*t. Nothing you say has any relevance. It's just fluffy bullsh*t based on even older bullsh*t. You can stuff your "holier than thou" attitude where the sun don't shine.
The "best" "answer" you can come up with is rail at me for understanding the meaning of what you insist is the truth.
Ilíon wrote:
and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye.
What the fuck do you know?
-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören
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Ilíon wrote:
and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye.
What the fuck do you know?
-- Verletzen zerfetzen zersetzen zerstören Doch es darf nicht mir gehören Ich muss zerstören
This isn't about what I know. This is about *reason* and *logic* I pointed out to you the logical out-working of what you insist is the truth about reality and your response is irrational (and ineffective) personal invective which does not and never can address the LOGIC I presented you. Now, as for my statement that:
You *claim* to be bravely facing up to reality as it really is. *That* is reality ... as you insist it is ... and you don't have the guts to look it in the eye.
That's way too simple. I too am a human; I do understand a thing or two about humans by the very fact that I am one. It's self evidently true that you do not have the guts to look reality (as you assert reality really is) in the eye; for, if you did have the guts, you wouldn't be trying to call me stupid, or worse, for making you aware of the logical out-woking of your assertions about the nature of reality.
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Humorous photo-shopping aside, of course, the truth is that as *reality* would have it, it is 'atheism' which is closing up shop. Damn, man! don't you pay attention to current events? Haven't you noticed that, as Europe is so clearly demonstrating, 'atheism' is a one-way ticket to national/cultural suicide. By the way, knowing how important predictions are to those who claim to have a "scientific" mind-set, what is happening to the European nations (what they are doing to themselves, actually) just happens to be a prediction of the Bible.
Ilíon wrote:
By the way, knowing how important predictions are to those who claim to have a "scientific" mind-set, what is happening to the European nations
Haha. Athiests are a minority in Europe. Looks like the Catholics and Protestants are the guilty parties. Looks like religion is the one-way ticket to cultural suicide, actually.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
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OK, I can see your angle now, and why you're twisting what I said.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
He's good with words, I'll give him that. But so is at least one monkey out of a billion as well. Might not be long until we see Hamlet posted here...
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John Carson wrote:
and
But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.
John Carson wrote:
Almost all of the Christians that I know personally think that assisted suicide is a sin.
OK, if you've taken a poll, I'll give you this one.
John Carson wrote:
No surprise that an atheist thinks they are better off not having that behaviour.
The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.
John Carson wrote:
No it isn't.
OK, I accept that if the person who wrote this was exposed only to Catholicism, that would color his percption. Just like someone who only ever knew JWs, would have a different view. My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians. It's as sensible as saying 'All Christians need to knock on doors for a certain time per week ( because JWs do ), or all Christians wear red undies ( I believe Mormons do this ). It's not that different to saying that all athiests vote Democrat. Some may visibly do so, that does not mean they all do.
John Carson wrote:
Nor does the fact that you find value in something necessarily mean that there is value in it.
Of course. I am not the one making generalisations.
John Carson wrote:
The point is that there is a huge pattern of cover-ups in the Catholic church and one can make a good argument that that pattern derives at least in part because of a reluctance to question the goodness of a "man of God" and a belief on the part of the Catholic hierarchy that prayer and repentance and all those usual Christian things were an effective way of dealing with the problem. Just talking about the issue is something many Christians are extremely uncomfortable with.
No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church. A lot of Christians are especially uncomfortable because of things like this post, that infer that all Christians are in on it.
Christian Graus wrote:
But when I make the statement, I am not claiming to speak for vast numbers of people, he's claiming that religious people, at least overwhelmingly, ARE afraid.
Yeah, he is exaggerating.
Christian Graus wrote:
The point is, it's not a rational position to take. I'm glad I'm not a Christian, because I don't want to be, is a foregone conclusion and not a proof.
Well, the list was introduced with the remark that Christians say that believing in God is a good thing to do even if the belief is incorrect (because it gives comfort etc.). Thus the author was saying: oh well, two can play at that game.
Christian Graus wrote:
My point is, if ONLY Catholics believe something, it's not a valid statement to make in generalising about all Christians.
Of course. The list is polemical rather than scholarly. I didn't agree with your original characterisation of it as a joke and still don't, but it is certainly not serious in the sense of being a balanced appraisal of Christianity. It is highlighting negative features seem among some who claim to be Christians, which may or may not be representative.
Christian Graus wrote:
No more so than families which make excuses and cover up for incest. The pattern does repeat itself outside the church.
Of course. And if you want to say that plenty of atheists are ignorant, irrational, corrupt, vindictive, selfish, dishonest and all the rest, then you are right. Nevertheless, it is of some interest that this has been a huge problem in the Catholic church without there being, as far as we know, anything like the same problem in, for example, the public school system.
John Carson
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:) That seems to be your posting style, at least here in the Lounge and on my blog as well. :) Take care, God bless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
As you've probably figured out by now, I don't care for illogic. If I'm trying to discuss something with someone who refuses (or, perhaps, is merely unable) to think/argue logically, I generally respond in one of two ways: 1) I just walk away, rather than waste another minute of my time, 2) turn my attention on the illogic, mercilessly (I am, after all, a savage).