No war please!
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On a ligter note: My father believes that the first rouge nation to develop and threaten to use nuclear weapons should have marshmallows and microwave popcorn air-dropped all over the country with notes stating "microwaves arrive tomorrow".
LOL! Reminds me of the telegram, "F**k You! Stop. Strong letter follows. Stop."
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Where are you located? Karachi?
Yes a am in karachi. Here the major air fields of Air Force are located. Because of the presence of two seaports and nuclear reactor, this city was the priary target of Indian Jets during the wars of 1965 and 1971 Imran Farooqui
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Not really true. If you consider that there are two seperate types of nukes - tactical and stratgic and that a nuke is nothing more or less than a big bomb. More people would be killed in a conventional attack on a major city using thermal , cluster, and FAE weapons than if the opposing armies went after it using tactical nukes. Strategic nukes are a different thing - designed to terrorize populations more than anything else - and are not really a major part of military planning anymore. Even a great many our MIRVED missiles carry tactical warheads now. Those that have these weapons are gonna keep them. Those that don't are gonna bitch about it. I want to be on the side thats got them. If one knows he is gonna get beat up then he won't start the fight in the first place. MAD has its place. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: Those that have these weapons are gonna keep them. Those that don't are gonna bitch about it. I want to be on the side thats got them. If one knows he is gonna get beat up then he won't start the fight in the first place. MAD has its place. Sorry, you probably don't realise that I am idealist fanatic living in a real world :-D Basically whatever anyone says MAD is not a nice thing. Sure, it is the best alternative we have at the moment, but if God were around we would ask him to change the situation pretty damn quick. I mean nobody actually WANTS to have to implement a MAD type system. If a better alternative is found then blam, we would be on it like Jar Jar Binks to an accident. Richard Stringer wrote: More people would be killed in a conventional attack on a major city using thermal , cluster, and FAE weapons than if the opposing armies went after it using tactical nukes So one thermal, cluster or FAE unit would kill more than one tactical nuke? What about things like fallout and residual effects? If I let off 5000 FAE (what the heck is an FAE btw?) units would it also terminate life on the planet as would the release of 5000 tactical nukes? (I do realise that tactical nukes have less fallout than other types of nukes, but they still have some fallout, right?) If the answer is "no, 5000 FAEs wouldnt" then I think my point that a nuke (strategic or tactical) is not just a bigger stick of dynamite is right, it is a different ball game and new rules and considerations have to be taken into account. You obviously know a lot more about weapons than I :) (not that I mind in the least!) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
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Paul Watson wrote: I think that is a moot point. What can a rogue nation do? Maybe construct 1 or at most 2 nuclear weapons. Yes, mass destruction nonetheless (but not global like 2000 can.) I am not saying that the US and others should not eliminate their stockpiles. What I am saying, however, is that eliminating them will not reduce the "real" risk. From what I have seen, heard and can decide for myself, there is little real risk of an all-out launch of numerous nuclear weapons by any nation. The highest risk lies with the 5-15 rouge nations/groups obtaining the technology and using them as terror weapons. Paul Watson wrote: Once you go beyond 50 nukes WTF are you counteracting? I agree that there is little use for more than 1 or 2 weapons at any given time. The only real benefit I can see to having 2000+ is to 1) say we have more than you and 2) to control access to the materials. However, the argument could be made that having a few large nations control access to 90+% of the weapons material is not a bad thing. This can limit the potential exposure the rest of the world has to rouge nations. Personally, I'd prefer that nuclear weapons didn't exist, but they do. For me the issue is not dismantling the ones that exist, it is controlling access to the materials to make them. The problem with my view (I know, I know) is "who should control the materials?". We can't eliminate the materials or technology. We can't or won't eliminate the rouge nations. Therefore no final solution exists other than the "cold-war" style mutual destruction mantra and this only helps with the rouge nations, not the rouge groups. Sure we could nuke Iraq, but we really can't nuke Al Queda. The only solution to the rouge group issue is controlling access to the materials.
Matt Gullett wrote: Personally, I'd prefer that nuclear weapons didn't exist, but they do. For me the issue is not dismantling the ones that exist, it is controlling access to the materials to make them Amen to that Matt Gullett wrote: The problem with my view (I know, I know) is "who should control the materials?". I cannot be the only one who sees the depravity in even having to think of that. Humanity is so far down the bumb-fuck road that even if we have a perfectly sane and safe solution to the nuke stand-off situation we would end up a: fighting over who thought it up, b: not implementing it and c: blaming everything on the other guy for not implementing it. We would not simply go "Wow, thats great, a solution lets do it" and then have everyone do it. I will bet the average populace would, but our so called leaders wouldn't because of egos and pompous posturing! I just think the whole situation is mad and I defy anyone to explain to me why the current situation is actually good. If that person who defies me were presented with the choice of a world with the MAD situation and one without it (and with no possibility of rogue states going, well, rogue) then what would they choose? Hopefully the latter. But it does seem as though some people would choose the former because they see the inherint power in it, which is just f'ing sickening. Ah well, off home to watch Star Trek Voyager, were a nuke is like babies fart and were everyone does the logical and correct thing eventually. Tuvok, beam me up. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
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Paul Watson wrote: 2000 nukes is overkill While it's true that having just a couple warheads would be sufficient for a battle, there is a need to be able to deliver them at need. These are not universal designs, but uniquely customized for several platforms. To make them available as needed, too, they have to be redundant - you can't depend on just one B-52 in the wing to have a device, a certain proportion of the force must be equipped so that a device can be delivered on demand. You can't depend on just one or two destroyers have a nuclear missile or two aboard - they might not be in the right ocean when you need them. The 2000 number doesn't seem too high, though we could probably make do with some lower number. The greater risk is from the fringe groups who have just one, and no qualms about dying to set it off. The concept of MAD that kept the world at (relatively speaking) peace for 50 years doesn't apply to these loonies. They don't care if they're destroyed, so there is no deterrence.
Roger Wright wrote: While it's true that having just a couple warheads would be sufficient for a battle, there is a need to be able to deliver them at need. These are not universal designs, but uniquely customized for several platforms. To make them available as needed, too, they have to be redundant - you can't depend on just one B-52 in the wing to have a device, a certain proportion of the force must be equipped so that a device can be delivered on demand. You can't depend on just one or two destroyers have a nuclear missile or two aboard - they might not be in the right ocean when you need them. And you don't think that a world in which you have to think "geee, I had better have 2000 extra nukes in case the 30 I just sent to bumb-fuck-China don't make it" is an insane world? The mere act of having to plan like that is insane. Yes I realise we have to because we live in that world, but it just plain old sucks. Anyway, thanks for the input, off to go see how many pedestrians my car can scare on the way home, chow. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
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Richard Stringer wrote: Sooner or later one has to face up to the fact that they are responsible for their on fate and act accordingly. Unfortunately, many of the politics in power are corrupt and don't give a damn for their people ... just watch Angola , with the President Eduardo dos Santos and the late Jonas Savimbi of the Rebellion Movement Unita ,for these two only thing matters money , e.g diamonds traffic ... and so on :( Cheers, Joao Vaz A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person - Natalie Portman (Padme/Amidala of Star Wars)
But that is the problem. The populance will have to stop this on their own. If other nations just throw money at the problem it will just make it worse. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Roger Wright wrote: While it's true that having just a couple warheads would be sufficient for a battle, there is a need to be able to deliver them at need. These are not universal designs, but uniquely customized for several platforms. To make them available as needed, too, they have to be redundant - you can't depend on just one B-52 in the wing to have a device, a certain proportion of the force must be equipped so that a device can be delivered on demand. You can't depend on just one or two destroyers have a nuclear missile or two aboard - they might not be in the right ocean when you need them. And you don't think that a world in which you have to think "geee, I had better have 2000 extra nukes in case the 30 I just sent to bumb-fuck-China don't make it" is an insane world? The mere act of having to plan like that is insane. Yes I realise we have to because we live in that world, but it just plain old sucks. Anyway, thanks for the input, off to go see how many pedestrians my car can scare on the way home, chow. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
Paul Watson wrote: off to go see how many pedestrians my car can scare Try not to think of them as pedestrians, but rather as pylons.
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But that is the problem. The populance will have to stop this on their own. If other nations just throw money at the problem it will just make it worse. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
Richard Stringer wrote: But that is the problem. The populance will have to stop this on their own. If other nations just throw money at the problem it will just make it worse. Yeap, again right , it's because of this that this kind of countries don't advance a dimme ,always the samme problems , really is a shame X| Cheers, Joao Vaz A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person - Natalie Portman (Padme/Amidala of Star Wars)
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Richard Stringer wrote: Those that have these weapons are gonna keep them. Those that don't are gonna bitch about it. I want to be on the side thats got them. If one knows he is gonna get beat up then he won't start the fight in the first place. MAD has its place. Sorry, you probably don't realise that I am idealist fanatic living in a real world :-D Basically whatever anyone says MAD is not a nice thing. Sure, it is the best alternative we have at the moment, but if God were around we would ask him to change the situation pretty damn quick. I mean nobody actually WANTS to have to implement a MAD type system. If a better alternative is found then blam, we would be on it like Jar Jar Binks to an accident. Richard Stringer wrote: More people would be killed in a conventional attack on a major city using thermal , cluster, and FAE weapons than if the opposing armies went after it using tactical nukes So one thermal, cluster or FAE unit would kill more than one tactical nuke? What about things like fallout and residual effects? If I let off 5000 FAE (what the heck is an FAE btw?) units would it also terminate life on the planet as would the release of 5000 tactical nukes? (I do realise that tactical nukes have less fallout than other types of nukes, but they still have some fallout, right?) If the answer is "no, 5000 FAEs wouldnt" then I think my point that a nuke (strategic or tactical) is not just a bigger stick of dynamite is right, it is a different ball game and new rules and considerations have to be taken into account. You obviously know a lot more about weapons than I :) (not that I mind in the least!) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
FAE is Fuel Air Explosive. Detonated at altitude they can kill anything in about a one square mile area with over pressure and concussion. Nasty little things. Not like a conventioal bomb at all. If conventional weapons are used on a population area they will not be delivered as single units but in a massive, overwhelming attack. Just like the carpet bombing that the US used on the Republican Guard in Iraq. The carpet bombing was done using B52 bombers from 50000 feet using convettional 500 and 1000 lb dumb gravity bombs - some of those B52's came from as far away as Barksdale AFB in Louisiana. Just replace those with the newer smart weapons and you will begin to get an idea of what it would be like. Fallout from a nuke is only a problem if the fireball actually touches the ground. It it is an air burst at say 20000 feet the blast and concussion and heat does the killing and according to the Army they can have troops on the ground in three days after a strike. Of course thats the story - I;m not real sure of the facts. When I was in the service my first 12 months were spent at a Nike-Hercules missile base that had nuclear tipped anti- missile missiles. Had to attend many lectures and classes on the damn things. Goy out of there as soon as I could. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Nish [BusterBoy] wrote: I just read the newspaper I didn't. What's going on ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I didn't. What's going on ? Wow! A fellow-ignorant :-) Nish
Regards, Nish Native CPian. Born and brought up on CP. With the CP blood in him.