Does the internet hinder new programmers?
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Teachers at both school and colleges don't seem to be that bothered as long as the assignments are done. Tutorials taught by such teachers appear to be dumbed down. I often wonder if these teachers don't care or don't know. For teachers it is often easier to say "google for it" rather than giving proper tuition. Thus those junior programmers are at a disadvantage from the off insofar that if they are taught a certain type of mindset then it is awkward and difficult for them to change their ways later.
My experience in college was mixed. As with most subjects it depends on the professor. Had I not taken an Object Oriented course, I wouldnt know anything because my VB.NET class was copy and paste. It was the OO class that taught me about programming in general.
CleaKO
"I think you'll be okay here, they have a thin candy shell. 'Surprised you didn't know that.'" - Tommy (Tommy Boy)
"Fill it up again! Fill it up again! Once it hits your lips, it's so good!" - Frank the Tank (Old School) -
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I often wonder if these teachers don't care or don't know.
Teachers at the collegiate level need a certain pass/fail ratio in order to be considered an effective teacher. Flunk too many students and it reflects poorly on the teacher. So, students pass whether they fully understand the material or not.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
If a teacher is honest with their pupils, then that in itself should cause the student to "pull his socks up" considering the monetary costs incurred by all concerned. Statistics and targets in this respect lose their meaning when they are doctored in such a way that you suggest. If a teacher can't teach then that teacher should not be there. If a student won't learn either the student is poorly placed doing a course they have no real interest in or the student should be told to "buck their ideas up or leave the course". A middle ground where statistics are forged and poorly qualified students come out the other end MUST BE wholly unacceptable and this practise must stop.
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I've been in this business for more years than I care to admit. I've seen paradigm changes, technology changes, etc. When the WWW went into full bloom, and became a place for information when your stuck, it was a blessing to us programmers. I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years, but now seems to be the exception, instead of the norm. I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start. Of course, there are those who actually have that programmer drive (it' probably a curse) where you need to understand it completely. But it seems that type of programmer is less common now.
ednrgc wrote:
It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start.
I view this as excellent news - it will make my skill set even *more* valuable! :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Techno Silliness
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I hear you loud and clear. When I started with that computer stuff, good material was hard to come by. I rummaged through everything the local library had to offer, and digested it "offline", i.e. without a PC to try it. Particulary, I kave a knack for assembler because of the local library carrying an 80286 asm reference manual, and my appetite for C was awakened by a strange "Puzzles in C" book - in spirit, a dead tree version of the Obfuscated C Contest. What's more, access to computers was limited for a long time, so I had to plan ahead alot. Writing down code on paper etc. Of course I would have DIED for a resource like the internet. So for the gifted, it's more a boon than a bane. However, it does not teach discipline.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!Same here - I can't tell you how much I spent on books that I read to teach myself programming and for resource material.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Techno Silliness
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ednrgc wrote:
I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years...
You just can't say this strong enough.
ednrgc wrote:
I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start.
It's that "microwave" mentality. They want it and they want it now!!
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
It's that "microwave" mentality. They want it and they want it now!!
you must be talking about posts like this ;-) Russ
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I've been in this business for more years than I care to admit. I've seen paradigm changes, technology changes, etc. When the WWW went into full bloom, and became a place for information when your stuck, it was a blessing to us programmers. I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years, but now seems to be the exception, instead of the norm. I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start. Of course, there are those who actually have that programmer drive (it' probably a curse) where you need to understand it completely. But it seems that type of programmer is less common now.
ednrgc wrote:
Does the internet hinder new programmers?
I wouldn't exactly blame the internet, but it certainly does increase availability of material. Copying off your partner has been a long time issue at schools. If the professor is good, they can recognize programming style. I published the homework assignments in my folder at the school for method tutorial, but my solutions were always "unique" in method/implimentation. For instance the first assignment was to walk a path across a map of elevations to find the shortest path of vertical change, without going backward (diagnal up, diagnal down, straight forward). Simple if statements and a loop until finished was all that was required, I used min-max chess logic to find the optimal move. Anyone who copied my work was easily discovered. But with the internet, you can copy the work of a professor at the University of Georgia this week who is showing his students the same problem he assigned last week, that you are doing this week. And next assignment you can copy off a student in California, next a TA solution from back east, or even go world-wide and copy more. The problem isn't "new" it is a very old problem of copying off your neighbor, the internet just puts the whole world as your neighbor.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I hear you loud and clear. When I started with that computer stuff, good material was hard to come by. I rummaged through everything the local library had to offer, and digested it "offline", i.e. without a PC to try it. Particulary, I kave a knack for assembler because of the local library carrying an 80286 asm reference manual, and my appetite for C was awakened by a strange "Puzzles in C" book - in spirit, a dead tree version of the Obfuscated C Contest. What's more, access to computers was limited for a long time, so I had to plan ahead alot. Writing down code on paper etc. Of course I would have DIED for a resource like the internet. So for the gifted, it's more a boon than a bane. However, it does not teach discipline.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
What's more, access to computers was limited for a long time, so I had to plan ahead alot. Writing down code on paper etc.
I remember I got a "A" for my programming language class, without touching a computer. At the end of the semester, the college organized a trip for us to visit the computer lab in a nearby a university. It was a transistor computer what occupied a very big room.
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I've been in this business for more years than I care to admit. I've seen paradigm changes, technology changes, etc. When the WWW went into full bloom, and became a place for information when your stuck, it was a blessing to us programmers. I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years, but now seems to be the exception, instead of the norm. I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start. Of course, there are those who actually have that programmer drive (it' probably a curse) where you need to understand it completely. But it seems that type of programmer is less common now.
Internet is a double-edged sword. Whether you use it or mis-use it is upto you and solely rests in your hands.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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Teachers at both school and colleges don't seem to be that bothered as long as the assignments are done. Tutorials taught by such teachers appear to be dumbed down. I often wonder if these teachers don't care or don't know. For teachers it is often easier to say "google for it" rather than giving proper tuition. Thus those junior programmers are at a disadvantage from the off insofar that if they are taught a certain type of mindset then it is awkward and difficult for them to change their ways later.
I was a software manager at my last company, in the UK, and I got to the state I would not even bother to interview a new graduate, until they had a couple of years experience. I found around 95% were a waste of time, their only 'skill' was the ability to cut and paste, they had no understanding of what the code did or was supposed to do, or any concept what their 'short cuts' would do in the long term. When I was a lad you went into computing because it interested you, now it seems you go into it to make 'big bucks', allegedly :)
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
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Internet is a double-edged sword. Whether you use it or mis-use it is upto you and solely rests in your hands.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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The problem is that most new programmers take shortcuts, and never learn discipline that is necessary to get to the next level.
True. They just copy paste the code into the applications without caring for testing it, applicability to the context, copyright laws etc. We were forced to bring a heavy proxy server to ban all downloads in my previous organization (http://deepakvasudevan.blogspot.com/2004/03/life-at-c-s-software-11-august-2001-to.html[^]).
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
-
I've been in this business for more years than I care to admit. I've seen paradigm changes, technology changes, etc. When the WWW went into full bloom, and became a place for information when your stuck, it was a blessing to us programmers. I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years, but now seems to be the exception, instead of the norm. I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start. Of course, there are those who actually have that programmer drive (it' probably a curse) where you need to understand it completely. But it seems that type of programmer is less common now.
ednrgc wrote:
I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces...If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start.
I couldn't agree more w/those statements.
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peterchen wrote:
What's more, access to computers was limited for a long time, so I had to plan ahead alot. Writing down code on paper etc.
I remember I got a "A" for my programming language class, without touching a computer. At the end of the semester, the college organized a trip for us to visit the computer lab in a nearby a university. It was a transistor computer what occupied a very big room.
I'm still proud having spent a few days of an internship inside a 16 bit computer. :rolleyes:
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us! -
I've been in this business for more years than I care to admit. I've seen paradigm changes, technology changes, etc. When the WWW went into full bloom, and became a place for information when your stuck, it was a blessing to us programmers. I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces. This was a basic skill throughout the years, but now seems to be the exception, instead of the norm. I can't help but wonder if the internet has actually hindered the development of younger programmers. It seems that more and more of them just copy and paste code found on the internet, without understanding any part of the code. If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start. Of course, there are those who actually have that programmer drive (it' probably a curse) where you need to understand it completely. But it seems that type of programmer is less common now.
I often see co-workers struggle with a monster SELECT statement with 20 joins and WHERE clauses. I suggest breaking it down and using VIEWs for some of the work. They look at me like I have 3 heads. One actually tried it and thanked me.:-D I started out using Assembler and breaking down 48k programs to work in 8k. I prefer efficiency over flash.
He was a snowflake, like other "unique" snowflakes, falling down, getting stepped on, and pushed aside to disappear.
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ednrgc wrote:
I've noticed that younger programmers are missing basic skills, like breaking down a large problem into smaller manageable pieces...If the code doesn't work, they have no idea how to debug it, or even where to start.
I couldn't agree more w/those statements.
jayceepoo wrote:
I couldn't agree more w/those statements.
Basically, he is trying to emphasize on thier innovations and they try to lazily work on the leisures provided by the Internet.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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There have probably always been lots of bad programmers. The internet just makes it easier to find them. I know many bad programmers who don't post to the internet (too complicated) so I doubt the internet helped them.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
who don't post to the internet
But rather GET from the Internet.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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I often see co-workers struggle with a monster SELECT statement with 20 joins and WHERE clauses. I suggest breaking it down and using VIEWs for some of the work. They look at me like I have 3 heads. One actually tried it and thanked me.:-D I started out using Assembler and breaking down 48k programs to work in 8k. I prefer efficiency over flash.
He was a snowflake, like other "unique" snowflakes, falling down, getting stepped on, and pushed aside to disappear.
True that way, it would improve performance also and maintanability a lot.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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DavidCrow wrote:
It's that "microwave" mentality. They want it and they want it now!!
you must be talking about posts like this ;-) Russ
:)
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
-
I was a software manager at my last company, in the UK, and I got to the state I would not even bother to interview a new graduate, until they had a couple of years experience. I found around 95% were a waste of time, their only 'skill' was the ability to cut and paste, they had no understanding of what the code did or was supposed to do, or any concept what their 'short cuts' would do in the long term. When I was a lad you went into computing because it interested you, now it seems you go into it to make 'big bucks', allegedly :)
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
True. They do it without any copyright considerations or bug testing of the code or the applicability to the context, as I discussed elsewhere too.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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True. They do it without any copyright considerations or bug testing of the code or the applicability to the context, as I discussed elsewhere too.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
Also I find they have no understanding what a version number is, they just hack the code, send several releases per day to the end user, one of the 'benefits' of the internet, none of which have a version number, and they don't keep the source code to match these 'versions' so there is no way they can get back to the code of 2 days ago! My favourite was one idiot, who was made the Team Leader, against my strong complaints, thought it was a good idea to sort the contents of a database table by reading the entire table into an array and sorting the array! I won't tell you what happened to the department after 6 months of his 'leadership'. The sad thing was he was an intelligent guy, he just could not be bothered
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman