Free energy
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
Only local (private or collective) production can lead to 'free' electricity because every other option involves profit making companies - and you can't make a profit on zero income.
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
Free energy is impossible. You can't get something from nothing.
John Cardinal wrote:
All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago.
Hydro dams require upkeep, as does the wiring, etc. They also fill, and eventually need to be replaced. The energy is not free, it just doesn't require a source such as coal.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
Ah, but if _you_ owned the dam you'd get the energy for free, and have enough to sell.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
Free energy is definately feasible. Hydogen is ubiqutous and it is possible to use it as an energy source. The capitalists of the world will prevent it from being free though.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
You still have to have maintenance on the system, as well as new investment in R'n'D for better equipement and R'n'D for new installations. The population grows, we need to balance the new energy demand with better technology ( getting the most of each kw ). That costs a lot of money. IMO, transforming perpetual motion into energy will result in breaking the perpetual motion system; you will need to re-inject some of the energy to the system.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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Free energy is definately feasible. Hydogen is ubiqutous and it is possible to use it as an energy source. The capitalists of the world will prevent it from being free though.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
it is possible to use it as an energy source.
Sort of. But not currently in any useful quantity.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
And those dams don't need people to operate them? (Wages, Benefits) And those dams don't need maintenance and repair? (Operational Expense, Capital Expense) There's a lot of costs associated with that type of "free" energy. If we had less labor/machine dependent free energy that would be better. Dams really generate a lot of power but they require a lot of upkeep.
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered process, husband to a murdered thread. And I will have my affinity, in this life or the next. - Gladiator. (Okay, not quite Gladiator but close.) I work to live. I do not live to work. My clients do not seem capable of grasping this fact.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
John Cardinal wrote:
We will never see free energy.
Of course not. You will always be paying for the beauracracy and management of the billing dept. ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Free energy is impossible. You can't get something from nothing.
John Cardinal wrote:
All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago.
Hydro dams require upkeep, as does the wiring, etc. They also fill, and eventually need to be replaced. The energy is not free, it just doesn't require a source such as coal.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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And those dams don't need people to operate them? (Wages, Benefits) And those dams don't need maintenance and repair? (Operational Expense, Capital Expense) There's a lot of costs associated with that type of "free" energy. If we had less labor/machine dependent free energy that would be better. Dams really generate a lot of power but they require a lot of upkeep.
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered process, husband to a murdered thread. And I will have my affinity, in this life or the next. - Gladiator. (Okay, not quite Gladiator but close.) I work to live. I do not live to work. My clients do not seem capable of grasping this fact.
:rolleyes: Thinking is in short supply around here today. :) Seems that I pointed that out already. The point is no matter how cheaply you can source the energy it still costs money to get it to the end user. The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day? Anyone who want's to argue that it costs the same to maintain a 40 year old dam as it does to run a nuclear power plant I'll gladly take on.
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John Cardinal wrote:
We will never see free energy.
Of course not. You will always be paying for the beauracracy and management of the billing dept. ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
:rolleyes: Thinking is in short supply around here today. :) Seems that I pointed that out already. The point is no matter how cheaply you can source the energy it still costs money to get it to the end user. The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day? Anyone who want's to argue that it costs the same to maintain a 40 year old dam as it does to run a nuclear power plant I'll gladly take on.
The price of things is determined less by what they cost, and more by what the market will bear.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
The laws of thermodynamics: First law: "You can't win." Second law: "You can't break even." Third law: "You can't quit."
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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:rolleyes: Thinking is in short supply around here today. :) Seems that I pointed that out already. The point is no matter how cheaply you can source the energy it still costs money to get it to the end user. The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day? Anyone who want's to argue that it costs the same to maintain a 40 year old dam as it does to run a nuclear power plant I'll gladly take on.
John Cardinal wrote:
The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day?
probably is, but that doesn't mean you'll see the savings. there are price caps, long-term contracts, gouging, profit-taking, profits from one plant offsetting losses from another, etc..
image processing toolkits | batch image processing | blogging
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John Cardinal wrote:
The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day?
probably is, but that doesn't mean you'll see the savings. there are price caps, long-term contracts, gouging, profit-taking, profits from one plant offsetting losses from another, etc..
image processing toolkits | batch image processing | blogging
-
:rolleyes: Thinking is in short supply around here today. :) Seems that I pointed that out already. The point is no matter how cheaply you can source the energy it still costs money to get it to the end user. The real wtf is why isn't it at least cheaper than an operation that runs a nuclear power plant or shovels millions of tons of coal into a burner all day? Anyone who want's to argue that it costs the same to maintain a 40 year old dam as it does to run a nuclear power plant I'll gladly take on.
John Cardinal wrote:
Thinking is in short supply around here today.
I guess so as those costs are considerably large. Dams are expensive because the turbines and tubes are very expensive to maintain. The turbines are enormous and require many man hours and labor to maintain them and keep them running. They are perpetually being rebuilt and those costs just pile up. I don't know that any energy will ever be free or super efficient. People don't provide energy for it to be inexpensive. They want to make money after all. The biggest factor though is that the worlds demand for energy is increasing way faster than our ability to supply it. The biggest problem is that available water is becoming more and more precious and hydro-power will be a thing of the past if something doesn't change radically. I'm all for fission.
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered process, husband to a murdered thread. And I will have my affinity, in this life or the next. - Gladiator. (Okay, not quite Gladiator but close.) I work to live. I do not live to work. My clients do not seem capable of grasping this fact.
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I was watching some strange documentary last night about the history of the perpetual motion machine and free energy devices. These free energy guys were going on about the benefits the world would see once these devices were invented and one of their claims was that we would all have all the energy we could use for no cost. The problem with that theory is that personally, where I live, we have all the free energy we want and it is billed at the same rate as any where else. All our local power comes from hydro electricity, there is a river and a dam further up the highway and a generator that has been there for so long it's surely paid off it's initial investment many years ago with only maintainence costs at this point. Yet I still get an electricity bill in the mail and I'm sure I'm paying roughly the same per kilowatt hour as electricity that comes from a nuclear power plant or a coal burning plant or whatever. We will never see free energy.
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Free energy is definately feasible. Hydogen is ubiqutous and it is possible to use it as an energy source. The capitalists of the world will prevent it from being free though.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Hydogen is ubiqutous and it is possible to use it as an energy source.
No, water is ubiquitous on the Earth's surface. Free hydrogen escapes the Earth's atmosphere because we don't have enough gravity to retain it (unlike Jupiter, Saturn and the other gas giants). Hydrogen-powered vehicles and fuel cells give up energy by reacting hydrogen and oxygen, which is an exothermic reaction. The resulting compound is water. To get the free hydrogen to run the reaction, you need to electrolyze water. The net cycle if you could run it at absolutely perfect efficiency would be zero, but you can't. At best, hydrogen is an energy storage system, it's not an energy source. Fossil fuels are an energy 'source' because we find them in nature and can convert them to usable fuel sources by expending less energy than is contained in the fuel itself.
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder