Specialty GIS Development Job Market Observation [modified]
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
What's the pay? I'm not making a joke. Employers whine all the time about how they just cannot get anybody for their openings... (then they whisper... at the price we want to pay). So, any ideas?
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Yeah, whatever....
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
My experience doing interviewing is that the problem is mostly with the hiring companies being assholes about who they select to interview and how much they pay. (Blame HR for a big part of this, but graduate degree holding snobs managers are a big impediment as well at many, usually large, companies.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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What's the pay? I'm not making a joke. Employers whine all the time about how they just cannot get anybody for their openings... (then they whisper... at the price we want to pay). So, any ideas?
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Yeah, whatever....
This is one area I had allot of issues with when I was looking for jobs. I would get some calls where they wanted a GIS developer, a GIS analyst, a spatial DBA and a jack of all trades programmer and they wanted to pay next to nothing (Less than 40K). On average the pay is very competitive with programmer salaries, and some companies pay a little more, you just have to be choosy when picking the company to work for.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography.
Well that is very confusing. Since the VB community is so large there should be plenty O' qualified developers. ;)
led mike
LOL, unfortunately the field has tons of people who know very little code that actually hack some VB together to create applications.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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My experience doing interviewing is that the problem is mostly with the hiring companies being assholes about who they select to interview and how much they pay. (Blame HR for a big part of this, but graduate degree holding snobs managers are a big impediment as well at many, usually large, companies.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Not all of us with graduate degrees are snobs, especially not the ones who code.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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LOL, unfortunately the field has tons of people who know very little code that actually hack some VB together to create applications.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
-
I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere.
The biggest problem is businesses who want pre-qualified and experienced programmers. Not home-taught, but not train on site, but experienced people. This is difficult if none of the specialty markets want to train. How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim. I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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My experience doing interviewing is that the problem is mostly with the hiring companies being assholes about who they select to interview and how much they pay. (Blame HR for a big part of this, but graduate degree holding snobs managers are a big impediment as well at many, usually large, companies.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
we do our own interviewing in Engineering. HR manages the paperwork, fields the inquiries, puts out the ads, and does the final hiring paperwork. But the department head chooses interview people from the engineering staff.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
then have application development experts like me
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it. ;P
led mike
led mike wrote:
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it.
Actually, not. That's mainly what I do and I'm damn good at it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a reluctance to classify programmers beyond those who do drivers and those who don't. You don't ask a mechanical engineer to work as an electrical engineer, so why ask both to be software engineers? But, my complaint about graduate snobs are the people who get all indignant when working with people who don't have a CS degree, let alone a graduate CS degree. Or who block them from even being hired in the first place. I know there are exceptions, but I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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led mike wrote:
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it.
Actually, not. That's mainly what I do and I'm damn good at it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a reluctance to classify programmers beyond those who do drivers and those who don't. You don't ask a mechanical engineer to work as an electrical engineer, so why ask both to be software engineers? But, my complaint about graduate snobs are the people who get all indignant when working with people who don't have a CS degree, let alone a graduate CS degree. Or who block them from even being hired in the first place. I know there are exceptions, but I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
People with PhDs are not intended to work in the real world even though some jobs require it. They are really intended to teach.
CleaKO
"I think you'll be okay here, they have a thin candy shell. 'Surprised you didn't know that.'" - Tommy (Tommy Boy)
"Fill it up again! Fill it up again! Once it hits your lips, it's so good!" - Frank the Tank (Old School) -
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere.
The biggest problem is businesses who want pre-qualified and experienced programmers. Not home-taught, but not train on site, but experienced people. This is difficult if none of the specialty markets want to train. How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim. I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim.
Schools who do teach GIS focus on training analysts. In my grad program I had to fight tooth and nail to get classes in CS and CIS accepted as legitimate classes for my degree. Out of 20 graduates and 50 undergraduates, I was the only one with a clue how to program or work with software.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them.
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
People with PhDs are not intended to work in the real world even though some jobs require it. They are really intended to teach.
CleaKO
"I think you'll be okay here, they have a thin candy shell. 'Surprised you didn't know that.'" - Tommy (Tommy Boy)
"Fill it up again! Fill it up again! Once it hits your lips, it's so good!" - Frank the Tank (Old School) -
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
If only it were that simple. Most of the GIS base application code requires the complete use of the GIS libraries for their implementation. I wish sometimes it was that simple, but spatial applications usually require almost all spatial developed solutions. Also, the development of the geographic components are the core development processes behind the applications. If only it were that simple:-D
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim.
Schools who do teach GIS focus on training analysts. In my grad program I had to fight tooth and nail to get classes in CS and CIS accepted as legitimate classes for my degree. Out of 20 graduates and 50 undergraduates, I was the only one with a clue how to program or work with software.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them.
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
like us! ;) We make the GIS fun. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
unfortunately the field has tons of people who know very little code that actually hack some VB together to create applications.
Well since you sugar coated it like that, where can I sign up! :laugh:
led mike
Try finding some stuff on ESRI development sites and then tell me if you are really committed. I often end up working with little to no documentation and comment less code examples. The company has always been terrible with this. Also, there is little to none community of developers in this area. You sure you wanna try:laugh:
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
like us! ;) We make the GIS fun. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Exactly!!! You from NM, what part?
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe