Did the Red Sea Part?
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Judah Himango wrote:
...evidence for something patently Jewish.
Isn't the story of Moses accepted by Christians as well? What about Muslims?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Kinda:
10:90 And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
Looks like Pharaoh became a Hanif.
10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
Tell that to Hamas.
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The whole exodus story is accepted by Christians; all of Jewish Scripture is included in the Christian Bible. It is not accepted by Muslims.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Of course as an atheist, you believe that. As a religious person, I see evidence of God all around. I don't need a miracle to believe in God, but I do believe such things have happened. Joergen, you're selectively hearing the voices that confirm your opinion: there are several archaeologists claiming to have found evidence supporting the Exodus story. You may claim, "but they're religious and biased!" Well and true. However, same goes for this Egyptian head of archaeology: had he found something that confirmed the Exodus story, he would not only have invalidated his Islamic beliefs, but would have dirtied his Egyptian nationality, and probably would've lost his job as chief archaeologist of Egypt. What makes you believe him and not other archaeologists?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
there are several archaeologists claiming to have found evidence supporting the Exodus story. You may claim, "but they're religious and biased!"
I don't. The exodus may very well have happened - I don't dispute that at all. It's just that I don't believe there was anything divine about it. Stories from the past have always been "buffed up" a little. It's like old fishermen talking about their catch. At the end of the day, the 4 inch fish have grown into a 2 feet barracuda. Imagine what 2-3000 years can do!! ;)
Judah Himango wrote:
What makes you believe him and not other archaeologists?
I never said I believed him. :~ I just reacted to what was said here on this forum board.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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The whole exodus story is accepted by Christians; all of Jewish Scripture is included in the Christian Bible. It is not accepted by Muslims.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Kinda:
10:90 And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
Looks like Pharaoh became a Hanif.
10:93 And We verily did allot unto the Children of Israel a fixed abode, and did provide them with good things; and they differed not until the knowledge came unto them. Lo! thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they used to differ.
Tell that to Hamas.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I'm not an archaeologist. If I were, I probably wouldn't find things supporting Islam.
Then you'd be a lousy archaeologist. ;)
Judah Himango wrote:
Likewise, I don't expect...
Is this your faith talking or do you know that he is letting bias effect him?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Then you'd be a lousy archaeologist. ;)
I wonder just how many people do pure archaeology, not driven by politics, religion, or lack of religion.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Is this your faith talking or do you know that he is letting bias effect him?
Mike, are you claiming he's Jewish? :laugh: Whether Islamic or atheist, either is likely (although being an atheist in Egypt isn't an attractive proposition!), either way I don't expect him to find evidence that would put Egyptians or Islam in a bad light, and would certainly never find something promoting the Jewish religion! Doing so would mean he'd almost certainly lose his job. You think his findings are credible, Mike?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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From which Caribbean-based college did that "doctor" get his PhD?
Red Stateler wrote:
From which Caribbean-based college did that "doctor" get his PhD?
It's not a problem, just do what you did when it was proved that Genesis wasn't a literal account. You know, put less importance on that part. Move on - the Bible has lots of other pages!
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I don't remember who said that here, but it was something like: If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. And, btw, if an atheist agrees on something with someone that is not an atheist, it does not mean that atheism is a religion.
----- Formerly MP(2)
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Then you'd be a lousy archaeologist. ;)
I wonder just how many people do pure archaeology, not driven by politics, religion, or lack of religion.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Is this your faith talking or do you know that he is letting bias effect him?
Mike, are you claiming he's Jewish? :laugh: Whether Islamic or atheist, either is likely (although being an atheist in Egypt isn't an attractive proposition!), either way I don't expect him to find evidence that would put Egyptians or Islam in a bad light, and would certainly never find something promoting the Jewish religion! Doing so would mean he'd almost certainly lose his job. You think his findings are credible, Mike?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Mike, are you claiming he's Jewish?
Not at all - in fact you are "probably" correct about the whole situation but... I still prefer actual evidence rather than supposition. Its a character trait that probably explains my agnosticism.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
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Zow! So these writings are from the Koran?
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Yes - Islam accepts portions of the Jewish bible, but modifies it heavily (as you see there), claiming that Jews and Christians corrupted the original religion.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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No Evidence, Archaeologists Say[^] Ask the wiki-ball. The question is, how much of what we're told as historical fact is actually true? 90%, 50%, or less?
"I know which side I want to win regardless of how many wrongs they have to commit to achieve it." - Stan Shannon Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
What I was taught is that the likelihood that everything in the Bible being 100% factual is very slim. Many texts were written years after the events and things get 'buffed up' as Judah mentioned. As a Jew, I believe it happend. If it didn't, I think the underlying story and guiding principles are what are important. Happy Passover!
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Mike, are you claiming he's Jewish?
Not at all - in fact you are "probably" correct about the whole situation but... I still prefer actual evidence rather than supposition. Its a character trait that probably explains my agnosticism.
"If you drink, don't drive. Don't even putt." - Dean Martin
Ok, fair enough. *edit* voted down for saying "fair enough" :laugh: Maybe that's a good indicator of what's on the other side of the fence.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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It is in my sig now :->
----- Formerly MP(2) If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown
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Judah Himango wrote:
there are several archaeologists claiming to have found evidence supporting the Exodus story. You may claim, "but they're religious and biased!"
I don't. The exodus may very well have happened - I don't dispute that at all. It's just that I don't believe there was anything divine about it. Stories from the past have always been "buffed up" a little. It's like old fishermen talking about their catch. At the end of the day, the 4 inch fish have grown into a 2 feet barracuda. Imagine what 2-3000 years can do!! ;)
Judah Himango wrote:
What makes you believe him and not other archaeologists?
I never said I believed him. :~ I just reacted to what was said here on this forum board.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
At the end of the day, the 4 inch fish have grown into a 2 feet barracuda. Imagine what 2-3000 years can do!!
Normally I'd agree, but there's something special about preserving something one believes to be God-inspired. Take for example the Dead Sea scrolls: 2000 years later, our Scriptures are basically the same; no exaggerations in our modern texts, nothing different but for minor word translation errors. (I've been studying an English translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, please have a look for yourself if you don't believe me.) I'm amazed at how well our Masoretic texts and Greek Septuagints have held up over the last 2000 years. To me, it confirms that what we have now in the Bible, even if it's imperfect and flawed by mistranslations or even if it contains allegorical stories, is here for a reason, and that reason is God. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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What I was taught is that the likelihood that everything in the Bible being 100% factual is very slim. Many texts were written years after the events and things get 'buffed up' as Judah mentioned. As a Jew, I believe it happend. If it didn't, I think the underlying story and guiding principles are what are important. Happy Passover!
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
Well said, leckey. Happy Pesach!
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Passover: Do this in remembrance of Me The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
So.. what are claims without supporting evidence?
I don't have any. I don't know with 100% certainty that the Red Sea was parted. I also didn't make the claim. It's a historical account of an event.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
It is always the task of the claimer to provide evidence.
And this guy made a claim. But his claim was based on his lack of evidence rather than evidence. Where is it?
Red Stateler wrote:
It's a historical account of an event.
This is the part I have issue with. Saying something is a historical event means that there is proof, not just word of mouth. One of the reasons I'm not too big on religion, including my own, is because there's usually no proof. In regards to the way he say it, I'll acquiesce (POTC) that he did appear biased. However, he could still be speaking truthfully.
"Religion is assurance in numbers." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Doesn't agree with your ideals, does he?
No, but that's besides another point. This guy is making the statement that an event did not occur because he has not seen any evidence of it. He stated that "If they get upset, I don’t care. This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem." He also said, "Sometimes as archaeologists we have to say that never happened because there is no historical evidence." He's making a statement of fact based on a lack of evidence. It would be reasonable for him to say that he doubts it happened or that he doesn't believe it happened or that there is currently no archeological evidence that supports it, but to proclaim "truth" over a lack of evidence is disingenuous. What would be even more interesting is if this guy is Muslim (and given his name and location, I suspect he is). If that's the case, then we can see another similarity between Islamic fundamentalism and atheism...lack of physical evidence as the basis of faith. Addendum: If I farted 10 minutes ago, and you can't smell it, that doesn't mean I didn't fart.
Red Stateler wrote:
If I farted 10 minutes ago, and you can't smell it, that doesn't mean I didn't fart.
Now that makes a good philosophical question. If a person farts in the forest, does it make a smell?
"Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weasling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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No Evidence, Archaeologists Say[^] Ask the wiki-ball. The question is, how much of what we're told as historical fact is actually true? 90%, 50%, or less?
"I know which side I want to win regardless of how many wrongs they have to commit to achieve it." - Stan Shannon Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
It's now accepted that it was a mistranslation of Reed Sea. Potentially it was a tsunami that sucked the water out, allowing Moses through, then the tsunami came in over Pharoah. However since, as this article says, there is basically no evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt, and also that the 12 (?) cities supposedly burnt to the ground on their return show no evidence of any catastrophic fires, I doubt that Exodus is anything more than a kiddie's bedtime story.
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Red Stateler wrote:
It's a historical account of an event.
This is the part I have issue with. Saying something is a historical event means that there is proof, not just word of mouth. One of the reasons I'm not too big on religion, including my own, is because there's usually no proof. In regards to the way he say it, I'll acquiesce (POTC) that he did appear biased. However, he could still be speaking truthfully.
"Religion is assurance in numbers." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
This is the part I have issue with. Saying something is a historical event means that there is proof, not just word of mouth. One of the reasons I'm not too big on religion, including my own, is because there's usually no proof.
That's not true at all. Herodotus (an ancient Greek historian), for example, chronicled many events that have no direct archaeological support but are accepted as factual by historians. Droves of historical accounts don't have accompanying archaeological evidence because...well...that stuff decays and most of it hasn't been found. Even when archeological support is found, historical accounts are often the authority on historical events because archeology really tells very little.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Doesn't agree with your ideals, does he?
No, but that's besides another point. This guy is making the statement that an event did not occur because he has not seen any evidence of it. He stated that "If they get upset, I don’t care. This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem." He also said, "Sometimes as archaeologists we have to say that never happened because there is no historical evidence." He's making a statement of fact based on a lack of evidence. It would be reasonable for him to say that he doubts it happened or that he doesn't believe it happened or that there is currently no archeological evidence that supports it, but to proclaim "truth" over a lack of evidence is disingenuous. What would be even more interesting is if this guy is Muslim (and given his name and location, I suspect he is). If that's the case, then we can see another similarity between Islamic fundamentalism and atheism...lack of physical evidence as the basis of faith. Addendum: If I farted 10 minutes ago, and you can't smell it, that doesn't mean I didn't fart.
where does it actually say that he is islamic, couldnt he be coptic christian?
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