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PDF Reference - Intellectual Property

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  • B Offline
    B Offline
    bob16972
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

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    • B bob16972

      I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

      M Offline
      M Offline
      Marc Clifton
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      It's a big circle. All it means is that PDF and Microsoft's format will be replaced with another "open" format that, over time, goes through the circle as well. BTW, got a link to the IP section in version 1.7? Marc

      Thyme In The Country
      Interacx

      People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
      There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
      People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith

      B 1 Reply Last reply
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      • M Marc Clifton

        It's a big circle. All it means is that PDF and Microsoft's format will be replaced with another "open" format that, over time, goes through the circle as well. BTW, got a link to the IP section in version 1.7? Marc

        Thyme In The Country
        Interacx

        People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
        There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
        People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith

        B Offline
        B Offline
        bob16972
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        It's a PDF document and I haven't a clue how to link to a specific section. Sorry, I forgot to link this earlier. PDF Reference, Sixth Edition Version 1.7[^]

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        • B bob16972

          I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

          C Offline
          C Offline
          Christian Graus
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Well, if MS are more open in how they let people use their new format, won't that just push people towards MS ? Isn't the new format XML based ( and therefore, one presumes an XSL transform could be used to create them ) ?

          Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

          B 1 Reply Last reply
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          • B bob16972

            I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

            Z Offline
            Z Offline
            zorro911
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            i spent about 40 hours reading that doc when i had to embed sound + images into a pdf on the fly and i was thinking why wld anyone in their right mind read this stuff.... or have time to read it... looks like i found someone...

            B 1 Reply Last reply
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            • B bob16972

              I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

              Z Offline
              Z Offline
              zorro911
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              i also think you read i wrong...or are taking it too seriously what they are saying... for example., if you open up a PDF in notepad, you will see how "objects" are implemented, there is a certian, lets say "code" for each object., like 14 0 obj << /Type /Font /Subtype /Type1 /BaseFont /AGaramond−Semibold /FirstChar 0 /LastChar 255 /Widths 21 0 R /FontDescriptor 7 0 R /Encoding 25 0 R >> endobj what they do not want., is another company (i ofcourse am not implying that MS would so something liek this) to create., lets say a XPDF., and uses the same "code" for its objects., i.e. j++ and java

              B 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Z zorro911

                i also think you read i wrong...or are taking it too seriously what they are saying... for example., if you open up a PDF in notepad, you will see how "objects" are implemented, there is a certian, lets say "code" for each object., like 14 0 obj << /Type /Font /Subtype /Type1 /BaseFont /AGaramond−Semibold /FirstChar 0 /LastChar 255 /Widths 21 0 R /FontDescriptor 7 0 R /Encoding 25 0 R >> endobj what they do not want., is another company (i ofcourse am not implying that MS would so something liek this) to create., lets say a XPDF., and uses the same "code" for its objects., i.e. j++ and java

                B Offline
                B Offline
                bob16972
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                I'm referring to the PDF export from MS Office confrontation they had recently and not the new Vista XPS print driver file format. The wording in the "Intellectual Property" section was always very blunt about anyone can create pdf's from their apps using information obtained from the spec. No harm, no foul. It always gave me a comfortable fuzzy feeling that I wasn't crossing any lines by creating a product that created documents using their format and data structures. This section has been intact and hardly modified since the Adobe Acrobat 4 days. Suddenly, in version 1.7 the "Intellectual Property" section got much shorter and the four bullet points that always gave me that warm fuzzy were removed. I'm not sure what it means. That's where my concern is. I can't point to the spec and confidently say I'm allowed to create PDF's without using Acrobat software. They always had many other statements protecting the specification specifically which is to be expected. That's always been there and continues to be there. Compare and contrast the intellectual property section of Version 1.6(and prior) to Version 1.7 and note what's been taken out and then ask yourself why they chose to do that if nothing has changed.

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • Z zorro911

                  i spent about 40 hours reading that doc when i had to embed sound + images into a pdf on the fly and i was thinking why wld anyone in their right mind read this stuff.... or have time to read it... looks like i found someone...

                  B Offline
                  B Offline
                  bob16972
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  zorro911 wrote:

                  why wld anyone in their right mind read this stuff

                  Because I was tasked with creating a PDF writer a while back and continue to maintain and enhance it. But, I would have to agree that the specification is utterly confusing and so horribly complex that it surprises me how this ever became so popular to transfer documents with in the first place.

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                  • B bob16972

                    zorro911 wrote:

                    why wld anyone in their right mind read this stuff

                    Because I was tasked with creating a PDF writer a while back and continue to maintain and enhance it. But, I would have to agree that the specification is utterly confusing and so horribly complex that it surprises me how this ever became so popular to transfer documents with in the first place.

                    Z Offline
                    Z Offline
                    zorro911
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    the pdfs i create are dynamic from a .net app, i use abcpdf from websupergoo who have methods to write out the objects, so i had to read it to ., to specify what actually got "written out" in the end, it majically worked., i wld never clean up the code i had to write, or even visit it again, thats how messy it got

                    B 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • C Christian Graus

                      Well, if MS are more open in how they let people use their new format, won't that just push people towards MS ? Isn't the new format XML based ( and therefore, one presumes an XSL transform could be used to create them ) ?

                      Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

                      B Offline
                      B Offline
                      bob16972
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      I was guessing the wording changes were because of Microsoft's decision to provide the PDF export functionality/download in Office. Adobe's wording was so explicit and open that I was assuming it may have hurt their legal battles and they were now changing it to prevent it from happening again.

                      Christian Graus wrote:

                      Isn't the new format XML based

                      From what I've read, that seems to be the case and it will be a welcome change if it goes that way. One thing I noticed about the Vista XPS print driver file format is the same document is roughly twice as large than the same document rendered in PDF Postscript. That will be a hard pill to swallow.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • Z zorro911

                        the pdfs i create are dynamic from a .net app, i use abcpdf from websupergoo who have methods to write out the objects, so i had to read it to ., to specify what actually got "written out" in the end, it majically worked., i wld never clean up the code i had to write, or even visit it again, thats how messy it got

                        B Offline
                        B Offline
                        bob16972
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        zorro911 wrote:

                        i wld never clean up the code i had to write, or even visit it again, thats how messy it got

                        I hear you. I would give this format up in a heartbeat if/when something better comes along. We'll see if .XPS catches on.

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • B bob16972

                          I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

                          B Offline
                          B Offline
                          Bradml
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          You know what... I think you are just about the first person to read terms and conditions! Well Done! :beer:


                          Brad Australian - Me on "Public interest" If you actually read this let me know.

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                          • B bob16972

                            I noticed the new PDF Reference, Sixth Edition for Version 1.7 no longer promotes the happy programming eutopia that was evident in version 1.4 through 1.6. Specifically, the "Intellectual Property" section used to say in plain and simple english (I won't quote it exactly so they can't sue me) :-D Anyone can (within reason): 1) make PDF files 2) write drivers that make pdf files 3) writes software that consumes pdf files and does (cool) stuff with it 4) do whatever it takes to utilize the data structures listed in the specification to get others on board the pdf programming train Now in version 1.7 of the specification, the "Intellectual Property" section gives some legal blah, blah, blah that leaves you guessing if you have any right to spit a PDF out of any program you write. "We continue to promote the use of PDF...blah, blah, blah" and then a link to their site. This link leads you to a section that basically lists the patent numbers with a little more blah, blah, blah. Frickin' Microsoft really ruffled their feathers on this last go around and the rest of us bottom dwellers, who can't afford to hire a lawyer to explain the patent mumbo jumbo to them, are left in a legal limbo never before seen in PDF land. Oh, the horror...the horror :sigh:

                            G Offline
                            G Offline
                            Gary R Wheeler
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Patent attorneys eat their own young. Assuming, of course, they let their mates survive long enough to bear their young. X|


                            Software Zen: delete this;

                            Fold With Us![^]

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