Europe restricts free speech
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Wow, I never met a nazi in my life. I didn't think they were very common these days.:rolleyes:
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I've met a few casual, i.e. not part of a millitary organisation, neo-natzis.
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Le Centriste wrote:
Spreading hatred and racism is NOT the motivation behind free speech.
Apparently the motivation is to allow the government to define history by condemning right-wing extremist governments while denying the wrongdoing of left-wing extremist governments.
Le Centriste wrote:
What would you say if someone came to you and said "9/11 never happened"?
I'd probably say, "whatever, dork". Of course, there are plenty of people who claim it was perpetrated by our government in some grand conspiracy. I'm not out trying to ensure they'll go to prison for three years for saying that.
Red Stateler wrote:
Le Centriste wrote: What would you say if someone came to you and said "9/11 never happened"? I'd probably say, "whatever, dork". Of course, there are plenty of people who claim it was perpetrated by our government in some grand conspiracy. I'm not out trying to ensure they'll go to prison for three years for saying that.
But what would you do if your government began passing laws to do this?
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Le Centriste wrote:
Spreading hatred and racism is NOT the motivation behind free speech.
Apparently the motivation is to allow the government to define history by condemning right-wing extremist governments while denying the wrongdoing of left-wing extremist governments.
Le Centriste wrote:
What would you say if someone came to you and said "9/11 never happened"?
I'd probably say, "whatever, dork". Of course, there are plenty of people who claim it was perpetrated by our government in some grand conspiracy. I'm not out trying to ensure they'll go to prison for three years for saying that.
Interesting to hear the motivation behind free speech. Now... what the heck? If I have ever seen a misquote, this is the one ;) As for the 9/11 comment: I'd show the exact same reaction. Not because I particularly like the US government, but because I refuse to believe that several thousand people would willingly and secretly cooperate to create that kind of murder conspiracy. Plus, evidence. I also see a tendency to condemn right-wing extremists more than left-wing extremists, but I believe this is founded on the misunderstanding of their respective concepts. People tend to believe that a "right wing government" equals a fascist/racist/dictatorial state, whereas a "left wing government" equals a free/equal/democratic state, which is a common mistake. All extreme governments usually develop into a big brother state, with a draconic penal system and daily mass murders. See Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Mussolini, Franco and Belarus, Zimbabwe, Ruanda, Sudan, Somalia, ...
Cheers, Sebastian -- Ceterum censeo, borlandem esse delendam.
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So how do you feel about Africans and the Holocaust? I think I have discovered why you Europeans are such lame asses. You HAVE to think and say what the government allows you to think and say. It makes so much since now. I actually thought people believed the shit they were saying. Lol.
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I am not a European, I'm a Brit. We come from one of the most un-European countries in the union with regards to attitudes. And, I too am confused: What do you mean by Africans and the Holocaust?
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
David Wulff wrote:
You see double standards in this 'free speech above all else
Erm , where? I see a lot of heated arguments and a fair ammount of gibberish. Very little desire to clamp down on free speech.
David Wulff wrote:
If there is no fear of reprisal, there is no deterrant in law.
I was referring to the fact that the threat of violent intimidation, not 'respect' caused every publisher in the UK to refuse to print the Mo Cartoons. The police are on record saying they would not be happy to provide protection for anybody who did so.
David Wulff wrote:
admitted murderers can get off on a technicality
'Techicalities' are the basis of good justice. I would certainly prefer a system where the guilty can go free because of a cock up in the legal process than one where people are condemned to jail for being 'obviously' guilty.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Erm , where?
I gave your four examples, why not start with those?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I was referring to the fact that the threat of violent intimidation, not 'respect' caused every publisher in the UK to refuse to print the Mo Cartoons
Then why didn't you say that and it would have saved me a reply? That has absolutely nothing to do with free speech; I and the police would expect the same if we openly insulted any group of people. Just because you or I have different levels of what constitutes an insult and what is fair game compared to some other people doesn't suddenly make it an issue of free speech. If you don't respect that then you have no right to complain when it happens to you. We are back to the double standards again.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I would certainly prefer a system where the guilty can go free because of a c*** up in the legal process than one where people are condemned to jail for being 'obviously' guilty.
Do you understand 'admitted'? And without a retrial?
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
I am not a European, I'm a Brit. We come from one of the most un-European countries in the union with regards to attitudes. And, I too am confused: What do you mean by Africans and the Holocaust?
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milkDavid Wulff wrote:
And, I too am confused: What do you mean by Africans and the Holocaust?
I figured those would be protected subjects under the new laws preventing you from expressing your views on the matter (if you were under the EU law). I thought England/Britain whatever was part of the EU.
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David Wulff wrote:
And, I too am confused: What do you mean by Africans and the Holocaust?
I figured those would be protected subjects under the new laws preventing you from expressing your views on the matter (if you were under the EU law). I thought England/Britain whatever was part of the EU.
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Britain *is* part of the EU but culturally we are not European. The mindsets are completely different. My passport still says I am British, not European for now.
Captain See Sharp wrote:
I figured those would be protected subjects under the new laws preventing you from expressing your views on the matter
The laws are not to prevent you expressing your views on protected subjects, they are to prevent you from inciting hatred and physical violence against people. For example, the people who called for riots after the July 7th attacks on the London transport network would have been arrested, and people calling for violence after cartoons were published would also expect to have to justify their actions in front of the law. Likewise, the leader of the BNP (British Racist Party) would have been put in prison for calling for violence against Muslims and blacks for being the cause of all crime and depravity in Britain. If, however, you wanted to qualify any of those with a 'because' that would stand in front of a jury of your peers then you will have no problem in doing so. It is a headline law, in that 90% of it was already legislated and the other 10% is common sense. That's what EU politicans do -- they have no real point to their existance as a political entity so they make shit up to justify their jobs.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Erm , where?
I gave your four examples, why not start with those?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I was referring to the fact that the threat of violent intimidation, not 'respect' caused every publisher in the UK to refuse to print the Mo Cartoons
Then why didn't you say that and it would have saved me a reply? That has absolutely nothing to do with free speech; I and the police would expect the same if we openly insulted any group of people. Just because you or I have different levels of what constitutes an insult and what is fair game compared to some other people doesn't suddenly make it an issue of free speech. If you don't respect that then you have no right to complain when it happens to you. We are back to the double standards again.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I would certainly prefer a system where the guilty can go free because of a c*** up in the legal process than one where people are condemned to jail for being 'obviously' guilty.
Do you understand 'admitted'? And without a retrial?
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milkDavid Wulff wrote:
Just because you or I have different levels of what constitutes an insult and what is fair game compared to some other people doesn't suddenly make it an issue of free speech.
I'm not sure I follow you here, are you saying that say.. Theo Van Gogh didn't deserve protection for exercising free speech because of the level of offense he and Hirsi Ali caused, and that it was a deliberate act? You do realise that is a recipe for mob rule? Your ideas are dangerous, and it is terrifying that they are so common in this country.
David Wulff wrote:
Do you understand 'admitted'? And without a retrial?
Do you have an example? Or are you pulling this out of your arse?
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David Wulff wrote:
Just because you or I have different levels of what constitutes an insult and what is fair game compared to some other people doesn't suddenly make it an issue of free speech.
I'm not sure I follow you here, are you saying that say.. Theo Van Gogh didn't deserve protection for exercising free speech because of the level of offense he and Hirsi Ali caused, and that it was a deliberate act? You do realise that is a recipe for mob rule? Your ideas are dangerous, and it is terrifying that they are so common in this country.
David Wulff wrote:
Do you understand 'admitted'? And without a retrial?
Do you have an example? Or are you pulling this out of your arse?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Theo Van Gogh didn't deserve protection for exercising free speech because of the level of offense he and Hirsi Ali caused, and that it was a deliberate act?
Not even close. In fact, the complete opposite.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Do you have an example?
It is a hypothetical question, where is your problem?
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
European Union nations agreed Thursday on new rules to combat racism and hate
crimes across the 27-nation bloc, including setting jail sentences against those who
deny or trivialize the Holocaust.
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EU justice and interior ministers said the rules call for criminalizing "incitement
to hatred and violence and publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivializing crimes
of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."The mass killing of Jews during World War II was the only genocide specifically
mentioned in the rules. Demands from Baltic nations that major Stalinist atrocities
be included were rejected.So not only is the EU severely restricting and punishing free speech, but they're apparently doing so on a politically selective basis. Why am I completely unsurprised?
Yeh the EU is fast showing itself to be a totalitarian state. Advise to Europeans - make it clear to your leaders that it is an ECONOMIC union. Threats to free speech should be met with the utmost resistance and defiance. Laws are only valid if they are supported by free peoples.
A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin.
-H.L. Mencken