Having personal projects.
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
If you do personal projects you're going to be improving your skills a lot more than if you just stick with work stuff. But then you have less personal time, so really you got to think of the big picture. I wouldn't publish anything in a fake name. No company has any say about stuff you do in your personal time. Even if it's written in your contract, if it came to the test it wouldn't hold up.
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I usually do stuff for the fun of learning. If I were to copyright ANYTHING my employer would get the credit.
__________________ Bob is my homeboy.
That's one contract clause I'd only accept if I was a) desperate for work and b) had no outside interests. The latter hasn't been true for me since 1999 or so, so it's pretty much a moot point now - even more so since Riverblade took off and I got the ISV bug. :-D
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
jith - iii wrote:
How many of you do spend time for personal projects?.
I do.
jith - iii wrote:
And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?.
Why would I ask for permission for something I do in my own time?
jith - iii wrote:
I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names.
Meanwhile, I get my personal projects mentioned in the company newsletter.
jith - iii wrote:
Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer
No. I'd get board with that anyway. I need to be trying new things. That way I can suggest better ways of doing things for the next project.
jith - iii wrote:
I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
But do they do the documentation for to comply with CMM Level 5, or do they actually do something useful with the documentation.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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After 40 - 60 hours of programming a week I could'nt think of anything worse to do with my spare time.
Slacker! :-D :rolleyes:
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
My boss has no problem with me having my personal projects. I can even publish some of them online, which I rarely do. I think it's a great resource for new knowledge and getting experience.
WM. What about weapons of mass-construction? "What? Its an Apple MacBook Pro. They are sexy!" - Paul Watson
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
jith - iii wrote:
How many of you do spend time for personal projects?.
I do. Personal projects (I assume you mean coding projects, not things like quilting) are how I market myself, because I can write about my personal projects.
jith - iii wrote:
And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?.
One of the reasons I became a consultant. That intellectual property clause can be pretty ridiculous. I've turned down an offer from Microsoft because "no manager will sign a moonlighting waver".
jith - iii wrote:
Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer.
I don't think so. As a consultant, I've experienced diverse industries and diverse technologies. As an employee, I've experienced being locked into tech support after releasing a product and watching the world move from DOS to Windows. In that particular job, I learned Windows on my own and through "moonlighting", as Microsoft puts it.
jith - iii wrote:
I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
Most programmers I know don't bother writing a line of documentation. :sigh: Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
At CMM Level 5 it is!
I agree with you. CMM Level 5 companies stretch this documentation stuff too much more than what is actually required. I actually work for a small company and we document what we feel is essential for another developer to understand our project. Numerous times documentation has given me a hand, when required.
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero
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jith - iii wrote:
How many of you do spend time for personal projects?.
I do. Personal projects (I assume you mean coding projects, not things like quilting) are how I market myself, because I can write about my personal projects.
jith - iii wrote:
And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?.
One of the reasons I became a consultant. That intellectual property clause can be pretty ridiculous. I've turned down an offer from Microsoft because "no manager will sign a moonlighting waver".
jith - iii wrote:
Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer.
I don't think so. As a consultant, I've experienced diverse industries and diverse technologies. As an employee, I've experienced being locked into tech support after releasing a product and watching the world move from DOS to Windows. In that particular job, I learned Windows on my own and through "moonlighting", as Microsoft puts it.
jith - iii wrote:
I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
Most programmers I know don't bother writing a line of documentation. :sigh: Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Most programmers I know don't bother writing a line of documentation
Actually thats what many programmers used to do:-D. Even if we document ,we put it in such a way that nobody would easily understand it. But if we intent to publish it,we would care to make enough docs.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I've turned down an offer from Microsoft because "no manager will sign a moonlighting waver".
:):) But not many will be as courageous as you.
Marc Clifton wrote:
As an employee, I've experienced being locked into tech support after releasing a product and watching the world move from DOS to Windows.
My last project was in .Net 1.1 and it longed for 2 years (from 2004-2007) . I did my first sample application in visual studio 2005 only last month.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I do. Personal projects (I assume you mean coding projects, not things like quilting) are how I market myself, because I can write about my personal projects
I know,your site itself would be having descent hit ratio.
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
I am a Progam & Project Manager. In my earlier career I was (and still am) a hard-core techie. I [used to] work on personal projects outside of assigned scope. Most past supervisers turned a blind-eye or tolerated. Only one ever threatened to fire me. For many years I've openly encouraged my teams to have a lil' project on-the-side, even when deadlines have been tough; with the proviso the day job gets done. Why? Everyone needs a distraction and moreso when the pressure is on or the task is mundane (to the individual). It helps relax the mind and re-energizes for the next sprint (for me as Program Manager, that translates to better-than-average individual velocities; win-win). It also attracts creativity and innovation - you can't really buy that at any price; it's either there or not. I know other Program Managers who feel the same way, though many wouldn't so openly admit... On the subject of documentation: I find many programmers hate it or are not very good at it. So the practical approach for me is to task those who are good at it and enjoy when that option is available. I try (not always successfully) to get programmers to change their mind-set and see documentation as a programming task; another language, another syntax, something to become skilled in, and something that _adds_ value. Whether documentation is for customer consumption, CMM, ISO9000, or whatever, it's there like code for a purpose. My job is to make sure we're clear on that purpose and to see the purpose fulfilled. It's better if we can make that a fun and enjoyable task, distractions included :)
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
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bywin wrote:
I have to agree with Shog. Just started a project with no documentation what so ever, not smart. Even flow diagrams will help, you don't need massive lines to text to convey a message.
Picking up someone else's project with no documentation is even worse, especially if your fixing/adding to and the original developer is no longer at the company!
Never argue with an imbecile; they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
I completely agree. I recently had to pick up a project that a C# developer (I'm a VB.NET guy) had left about 35% done. It was a NIGHTMARE.:mad: The worst part was not figuring out his code or his method of insanity, it was trying to determine how to get the work accomplished! They had classes EVERYWHERE and no matter how much time I spent, it always seemed that our Lead Developer wanted me to use some hidden method/function to accomplish the work at hand! Please, FOR THE LOVE OF STRESS-FREE CODE, document what you write. I'm not a big fan of writing user manuals, but the code NEEDS to have documentation in it!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
I thought this post was about having personal projects... If I don't have personal projects I never learn anything. Work training tends to be far too much about training for tools like DOORS, etc (P.O.S.). I use personal projects to learn more about the tools, learn more about intricacies of some aspect of development. It's rewarding for its own sake and it keeps me on top of the trade. As for Documentation, anyone that doesn't document should be summarily shot. If you've done any maintenance on bad code you'll know that trying to figure out how that rats nest of code works is worthless without documentation. Some developers are natural obfuscators without realizing it. My perception of them is that they're lazy, inexperienced or incompetent (or all three).
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brahmma wrote:
I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding. Documentation isn't a waste of time buddy.
Damned straight. At the same time, though, developers shouldn't waste their time on documentation, and tech. writers shouldn't waste their time on coding/testing/debugging.
Write your documentation first, then make the code live up to it. You accomplish three things: 1) you know when the project's finished (and so do your customers), 2) you won't leave anything out and 3) you give the customer a chance up front to make sure you understood what (s)he wanted.
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
I spend some time, but it is all my time. I don't have the time while at the office for any personal projects. I'm stretching to find the time to keep up with training, trade journals, etc. Since I have a family, house, etc, my personal project time is limited as well. I learn a lot from the other programmers around me, particularly the consultants that we hire for specific projects. They are often younger than I am and more current with technology.
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After 40 - 60 hours of programming a week I could'nt think of anything worse to do with my spare time.
I agree!!! Haven't any of you heard of taking a mental break. I prefer to sew clothes for my grandchildren, make quilts or plant flowers on weekends. Fifty hours a week staring at a computer monitor is enough! I rarely check my personal e-mail on my time off. Now when I retire, that's different. I expect to upgrade personal projects I created in the past (when I was laid off).
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jith - iii wrote:
I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
Documentation isn't a waste of time buddy.
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I completely agree. I recently had to pick up a project that a C# developer (I'm a VB.NET guy) had left about 35% done. It was a NIGHTMARE.:mad: The worst part was not figuring out his code or his method of insanity, it was trying to determine how to get the work accomplished! They had classes EVERYWHERE and no matter how much time I spent, it always seemed that our Lead Developer wanted me to use some hidden method/function to accomplish the work at hand! Please, FOR THE LOVE OF STRESS-FREE CODE, document what you write. I'm not a big fan of writing user manuals, but the code NEEDS to have documentation in it!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Jammin, In your case, it seems the C# developer didn’t fully understand what he was doing, no matter what funky technology he was using. If you spent a significant of time, and still couldn’t figure out, you should report to you manager the code is just shiiiiituff, not your company wanted. And ask your manager for design -- start with talking high level not code level. It is always a good idea to start with design, document the design, then program. It saves a lot of time. It is efficient to find and resolve problems in design stage. Changing design is easier than changing code. In the end of the project, you will find you are growing. If you jump start to coding, you will go nowhere. If one cannot document the design, it is an indication that he does not fully understand the application.
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How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
You should do your side-projects at home in your own time, and spend your work time on CodeProject. You should also make sure not to 'borrow' any company resources or software licenses, or your company may have a claim on anything you produce. If you stumble on the next killer app, like I have, you want it to be free and clear, and you want to be able to prove it.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
How many of you do spend time for personal projects?. And how many of you are getting permission from your company to do personal projects ?. I know many of my friends do spend time for their personal projects and publish them in fake names. Do a programmer get sufficient knowledge,if he sticks only with the tasks assigned to him by his employer. I know, most of the programmers in CMM Level 5 companies waste sufficient time in documentation rather than doing coding.
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Jammin, In your case, it seems the C# developer didn’t fully understand what he was doing, no matter what funky technology he was using. If you spent a significant of time, and still couldn’t figure out, you should report to you manager the code is just shiiiiituff, not your company wanted. And ask your manager for design -- start with talking high level not code level. It is always a good idea to start with design, document the design, then program. It saves a lot of time. It is efficient to find and resolve problems in design stage. Changing design is easier than changing code. In the end of the project, you will find you are growing. If you jump start to coding, you will go nowhere. If one cannot document the design, it is an indication that he does not fully understand the application.
Well, Frank, I have to say that I agree with you. Having been writing code since 1982 and being paid for it since 1993, I have seen an awful lot of code in my time. There have been examples on both ends of the spectrum. I have seen code that anyone could have opened up and actually learned how to program from. I have also seen code written so poorly and undocumented that no developer on staff wanted to touch it. You're correct. Good applications begin with good design. However, since I am a contractor (rented programmer), the design and first stages of implementation were done long before I got here. However, the previous developer was only on staff about six months before he moved on. I did not get the opportunity to work with him on this application before he was off to another project. I could go into alot of detail about the code itself, but 1) you wouldn't be interested in it and 2) it's not my code. Being a consultant, you write what they tell you to write. If I were an employee or had a long term interest in this company, I would have definately suggested some changes. The ideal company would understand that the design phase is one of the most important. Your statement about changing design is easier than code is true. However, in today's environments (that I have seen), that is unfortunately handled by people who have little to no concept of how (and sometimes even what) an application is capable of. They don't understand that the smallest of change can affect literally hundreds of other locations in the code. They see it as "This is what we want, go write it." When the man/woman who signs your paycheck expresses, with enthusiasm, their desire to have it done their way, you write it their way to keep your lights on and the bills paid! If I owned the company and signed the checks, you can believe that the processes would be followed much closer. Until that day, I'm just a rental.
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer