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  3. Can music be regenerated virtually?

Can music be regenerated virtually?

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  • L Offline
    L Offline
    Lost User
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

    J C R L G 9 Replies Last reply
    0
    • L Lost User

      Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

      C Offline
      C Offline
      Charles Keepax
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Isn't a MIDI file essentially just that?

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • L Lost User

        Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

        J Offline
        J Offline
        Jorgen Sigvardsson
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        It's called MIDI...

        -- My disbelief is not a belief.

        L 1 Reply Last reply
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        • L Lost User

          Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

          R Offline
          R Offline
          Ryan Roberts
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Old idea called 'mod' :). Was the best way of doing music back in the days when Amigas walked the earth. You can get some very nice software http://www.madtracker.org/[^] to make music with this technique. I have heard some pretty decent things done with it, though would be a while before you could match Squarepusher.

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          • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

            It's called MIDI...

            -- My disbelief is not a belief.

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Oops...I thought MIDI was related only to pianos. (I dont know how to play pianos )

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • R Ryan Roberts

              Old idea called 'mod' :). Was the best way of doing music back in the days when Amigas walked the earth. You can get some very nice software http://www.madtracker.org/[^] to make music with this technique. I have heard some pretty decent things done with it, though would be a while before you could match Squarepusher.

              J Offline
              J Offline
              Jorgen Sigvardsson
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Hrm.. I wonder if I can find one of the billion versions of Axel Foley. :)

              -- My disbelief is not a belief.

              B 1 Reply Last reply
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              • L Lost User

                Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                L Offline
                L Offline
                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                I think the general term for what you're describing is called Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI) and it doesn't have much to do with waves. ;) That's what Direct Music uses. Other than that, stuff like this is all over the place in programs like Fruity Loops (no ad intended:)) and other synth-like apps. As for a framework, there's got to be one lying around somewhere...

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • L Lost User

                  Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                  G Offline
                  G Offline
                  gvisgr8
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  MIDI can be used to reproduce any musical instrument sound....guitar, drum and piano too;P GV

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • L Lost User

                    Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                    A Offline
                    A Offline
                    Anton Afanasyev
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Anup Shinde wrote:

                    Music player framework (MPF)

                    ...codenamed The Harp, later renamed back to MMPF (Microsoft Music Player Framework), then a petition is filed to make it The Harp again, and 5 years later we have The MPF.


                    :badger:

                    L 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • L Lost User

                      Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                      L Offline
                      L Offline
                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Thanks guys, i got your point....and now my inventions proved waste :(( But I still have question(s) :) MIDI is small size and even plain vocals are small size (they dont need much bandwidth)....then why are the MP3 so big size files (5 MB is big enough) ;P cud be silly question.....but i like asking stupid questions :laugh:

                      R L C 3 Replies Last reply
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                      • A Anton Afanasyev

                        Anup Shinde wrote:

                        Music player framework (MPF)

                        ...codenamed The Harp, later renamed back to MMPF (Microsoft Music Player Framework), then a petition is filed to make it The Harp again, and 5 years later we have The MPF.


                        :badger:

                        L Offline
                        L Offline
                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        link please...i cant find anything on google for those keywords

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • L Lost User

                          Thanks guys, i got your point....and now my inventions proved waste :(( But I still have question(s) :) MIDI is small size and even plain vocals are small size (they dont need much bandwidth)....then why are the MP3 so big size files (5 MB is big enough) ;P cud be silly question.....but i like asking stupid questions :laugh:

                          R Offline
                          R Offline
                          Rama Krishna Vavilala
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Anup Shinde wrote:

                          now my inventions proved waste

                          Did you create anything in the first place that went waste?

                          L 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • R Rama Krishna Vavilala

                            Anup Shinde wrote:

                            now my inventions proved waste

                            Did you create anything in the first place that went waste?

                            L Offline
                            L Offline
                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            good point

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • L Lost User

                              Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                              D Offline
                              D Offline
                              Dave Sexton
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Anup Shinde wrote:

                              Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...

                              I take it you don't play an instrument yourself? Although there is repetition to a degree you can't fake the subtle inflections of a passionate guitar solo. Long live real music I say. And no, dance music is not real...

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • L Lost User

                                Thanks guys, i got your point....and now my inventions proved waste :(( But I still have question(s) :) MIDI is small size and even plain vocals are small size (they dont need much bandwidth)....then why are the MP3 so big size files (5 MB is big enough) ;P cud be silly question.....but i like asking stupid questions :laugh:

                                L Offline
                                L Offline
                                Luca Leonardo Scorcia
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                [oversimplification mode ON] There are two ways of representing audio in a computer: as a waveform (PCM and many more) and as a sequence of instructions (MIDI). Waveforms are accurate, they just note down thousands of times per second the value of the audio wave, and any usual speaker can be used to reproduce them. A single song in wave form easily takes 50 MBs of space. MP3s are an evolution of this technique, with an amazing, lossy, compression algorithm, but they still have to contain the values of the sound wave. There are algorithms with better compression ratio, MP3 is just the most popular. MIDIs on contrary just keep track of the "sheets": notes, instruments, time. Sure they're smaller, but then they delegate the rendering of the audio wave to the listener device. This means that MIDIs do not sound the same across different PCs (try with a pc equipped with different audio cards and you'll hear it by yourself). It's the same difference between a 50$ keyboard and a 30k$ Grand Piano: they do not sound the same, while they both have keys. They're consequently not suitable for hi-fidelity audio distribution. Moreover, it is not possible to create a midi from a waveform (while the contrary is easy), since waveforms are a single signal composed by the sum of vocals and different instruments. And, of course, there's the issue of post-processing filters: many songs we have on CDs are heavily manipulated after recording with various techniques. These filters are not easy to represent with a MIDI notation, while in waveforms we hear their result.

                                Luca The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.

                                L C D 3 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • L Lost User

                                  Thanks guys, i got your point....and now my inventions proved waste :(( But I still have question(s) :) MIDI is small size and even plain vocals are small size (they dont need much bandwidth)....then why are the MP3 so big size files (5 MB is big enough) ;P cud be silly question.....but i like asking stupid questions :laugh:

                                  C Offline
                                  C Offline
                                  Christian Graus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Because an mp3 is real music, and a MIDI file is information that a MIDI synthesizer uses to imitate real music.

                                  Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

                                  L 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • L Luca Leonardo Scorcia

                                    [oversimplification mode ON] There are two ways of representing audio in a computer: as a waveform (PCM and many more) and as a sequence of instructions (MIDI). Waveforms are accurate, they just note down thousands of times per second the value of the audio wave, and any usual speaker can be used to reproduce them. A single song in wave form easily takes 50 MBs of space. MP3s are an evolution of this technique, with an amazing, lossy, compression algorithm, but they still have to contain the values of the sound wave. There are algorithms with better compression ratio, MP3 is just the most popular. MIDIs on contrary just keep track of the "sheets": notes, instruments, time. Sure they're smaller, but then they delegate the rendering of the audio wave to the listener device. This means that MIDIs do not sound the same across different PCs (try with a pc equipped with different audio cards and you'll hear it by yourself). It's the same difference between a 50$ keyboard and a 30k$ Grand Piano: they do not sound the same, while they both have keys. They're consequently not suitable for hi-fidelity audio distribution. Moreover, it is not possible to create a midi from a waveform (while the contrary is easy), since waveforms are a single signal composed by the sum of vocals and different instruments. And, of course, there's the issue of post-processing filters: many songs we have on CDs are heavily manipulated after recording with various techniques. These filters are not easy to represent with a MIDI notation, while in waveforms we hear their result.

                                    Luca The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.

                                    L Offline
                                    L Offline
                                    Lost User
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Thanks for the real detailed info. You said that MIDIs donot sound same across diffrent PCs. But WAV audio will sound the same everywhere. Then if I go thru the path MIDI->Rendered WAV->Soundcard, it should be fine ...right?

                                    L 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • L Lost User

                                      Thanks for the real detailed info. You said that MIDIs donot sound same across diffrent PCs. But WAV audio will sound the same everywhere. Then if I go thru the path MIDI->Rendered WAV->Soundcard, it should be fine ...right?

                                      L Offline
                                      L Offline
                                      Luca Leonardo Scorcia
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      I'm not sure about what you mean. If you mean "if I copy across computers the rendered WAV, it will sound right", you're right, but you'll be trasferring a 50MB WAV, not a MIDI. Remember that the transition MIDI->Speaker is usually done by the soundcard, in hardware. A software MIDI rendering is possible of course, but home-synthetized instruments will never sound like real instruments, there's too much detail in the acoustic field that is not encoded by MIDI. Can you describe using your own words the difference between a keyboard and a piano? Imagine doing that in mathematical terms...

                                      Luca The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.

                                      L 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • L Lost User

                                        Let me explain...A lot of people are trying to find compression techniques for audio.... I just had a thought if we had a framework like "Music player framework (MPF)" that would have all the musical instruments virtualized. Well that's very much possible . Example Microsoft's Direct Music producer Most songs/music have repetitive sounds...like a drum beat every 2s and a flute played in background... If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression? Vocals cannot be programmed until machines can sing songs, but vocals take only a fraction of memory in the audio file Does anybody know any such kind of work done before? Anyways, today, I did invent two new terms MPF and MPP :laugh:

                                        B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        Brady Kelly
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        Anup Shinde wrote:

                                        If we can analyze the WAV audio and therby create a music-player-program(MPP) that would run on MPF, wouldnt that lead to a lot of compression?

                                        Yes, and a lot of loss.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

                                          Hrm.. I wonder if I can find one of the billion versions of Axel Foley. :)

                                          -- My disbelief is not a belief.

                                          B Offline
                                          B Offline
                                          Brady Kelly
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Hahaha, memories!

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