Is Vista any good? The market has spoken...
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Hmmm. The 2 devs here that have it installed are liking it. I've heard good things about the searching, the improved shell with excellent bread crumb navigation, the redesigned start menu. Of the UI design, things like the TaskDialog[^] seem like an improvement in UI design...what do you find dodgy? (Real question; I haven't used Vista since Beta 1.)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Virginia Tech Shootings, Guns, and Politics The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
the redesigned start menu
Personally I can't stand it - one of my pet peeves with Vista. FWIW I've gone back to XP SP2. I've been running Vista long enough to feel that I know enough about it so that I should be able to use it fluidly, but I find the entire UI is just harder to use. More clicks, more hunting, more have to be careful about selecting items and dropping them (seems to be hard to drop files into a folder without inadvertantly dropping it onto another file or subfolder), more squinting at window headers to read the title. And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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...and won't leave XP at all
Chris Maunder wrote:
And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
I will second that , i also tried Windows XP recently and was kinda liked it :) i hope MS comes with some solution for UAC thing and fast
Omit Needless Words - Strunk, William, Jr.
Vista? Touch Screen Explorer with Pen Flicks here
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Detail views are very stupid as there is no non-sensitive space except below the last line or right of the rightmost column.
Sounds like a valid complaint.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Not half as good as the tree view which gives you a spatial sense of sorts.
Now that I don't buy -- it's not as if the tree has gone away, right? I found that quite useful when I last used Vista.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Virginia Tech Shootings, Guns, and Politics The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Now that I don't buy -- it's not as if the tree has gone away, right?
No, but it's crap if you want to navigate the file system using the keyboard (which I do quite often).
-- For proper viewing, take red pill now
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...and won't leave XP at all
Chris Maunder wrote:
And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
I will second that , i also tried Windows XP recently and was kinda liked it :) i hope MS comes with some solution for UAC thing and fast
Omit Needless Words - Strunk, William, Jr.
Vista? Touch Screen Explorer with Pen Flicks here
Quartz. wrote:
...and won't leave XP at all
Change your name to XP sounds like that's a good way to go with her.:-D
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered process, husband to a murdered thread. And I will have my affinity, in this life or the next. - Gladiator. (Okay, not quite Gladiator but close.) I work to live. I do not live to work. My clients do not seem capable of grasping this fact. Ancient of days! august Athena! where, Where are thy men of might? - Lord Byron
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Judah Himango wrote:
the redesigned start menu
Personally I can't stand it - one of my pet peeves with Vista. FWIW I've gone back to XP SP2. I've been running Vista long enough to feel that I know enough about it so that I should be able to use it fluidly, but I find the entire UI is just harder to use. More clicks, more hunting, more have to be careful about selecting items and dropping them (seems to be hard to drop files into a folder without inadvertantly dropping it onto another file or subfolder), more squinting at window headers to read the title. And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
More clicks, more hunting, more have to be careful about selecting items and dropping them (seems to be hard to drop files into a folder without inadvertantly dropping it onto another file or subfolder), more squinting at window headers to read the title.
I don't think I could've said it better myself (I would've!) The UAC is ok after a while. It's like being clubbed in the head over and over again. It hurts up to the point when the brain brain just won't register pain any longer.
-- Featuring GRATUITOUS ALIEN NUDITY
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It proves that the 'market' is largely OEMs that are probably bound to buy it, and certainly would assume they want to offer the latest in their pre packaged PCs
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I suppose there is truth in that. I'm gonna hold on to XP at work for as long as possible. It may have its warts and zits, but it's a good OS.
-- Please rise for the Futurama theme song
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Judah Himango wrote:
the improved shell
You've got to be kidding me?? File copying is just a friggin nightmare if it's more than 10 files and/or more than 10 megabytes. Detail views are very stupid as there is no non-sensitive space except below the last line or right of the rightmost column. That means that if you want to select a bunch of files in the middle, you'll have to either: 1) become religious or 2) use keyboard 1) Sometimes it's possible to conjure up a selection rectangle. I have not yet figured out what god(s) I need to sacrifice a chicken for to make it happen. Try it... 2) Well, I like using my keyboard. But not all the time! Sometimes I use the keyboard, and sometimes I use the mouse (I do drag and drops occasionally). The point is though that I want to choose when. The view selector is utter crap. I think you're supposed to be able to grab the slider just by opening the views drop down menu. I manage to do that sometimes, and thus it's easy to change the view in one go. However, it doesn't always work. See 1) above. There are some features worth having in the shell (I like the grouping and stacking stuff), but that doesn't make it OK to screw up the basic day-to-day things one has come to rely on.
Judah Himango wrote:
excellent bread crumb navigation
Not half as good as the tree view which gives you a spatial sense of sorts. It's useless unless you use the mouse - if you open a drop down menu in one of the crumbs, you have to close the menu with Esc. Left or right won't work. Half finished, and quite superfluous.
Judah Himango wrote:
...what do you find dodgy?
The shell. The thing you actually use in the OS :) I suppose my real beef with Vista is explorer.exe.
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I've had problems when trying to copy and paste files from another box using a shared drive to a Vista box. It won't let me copy the files to the harddrive directly. I have to first copy them to my desktop then it'll let me copy them to the harddrive. UAC just bites! Virtualization blows. Drop down menus in apps that use a manifest with Aero turned on have been buggy on my Vista box. Everything seems blurry, even with antialiasing turned off. My eyes hurt. Custom MSI's don't work correctly. Even with Aero turned off, my apps are noticeably slower than on XP or 2000. Lots of odd behavior and slow refresh issues with apps that I didn't notice when run on earlier operating systems. I can see things redrawn before the next z-order item covers it up. Docking control bars act strangely as they transition from docked to being dragged. I'm guessing the transition effects are interfering. The frickin' automatic horizontal scrolling in tree views is about to push me over the edge. It's by design but it's ticking me off just the same as a bug would. Too much fluff and WAY too much safety adversely affected too many things. It ain't worth the grief it causes.
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I'd be more interested an a breakdown of that income. A mere big number doesn't mean Vista is behind it, although I won't discount that it's a big part.
------------ Cheers, Patrick
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I've seen Vista but never used it. My boss installed it, and immediately re-installed XP. From what I've heard, I don't want or need it, but it looks like MS is going to bully us into it. Pretty soon you won't be able to buy a new PC without Vista, which means most users will have it, which means us developers will have to code for it. I've come to the sad realization that resistance is futile - confirm or deny?
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
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Judah Himango wrote:
the redesigned start menu
Personally I can't stand it - one of my pet peeves with Vista. FWIW I've gone back to XP SP2. I've been running Vista long enough to feel that I know enough about it so that I should be able to use it fluidly, but I find the entire UI is just harder to use. More clicks, more hunting, more have to be careful about selecting items and dropping them (seems to be hard to drop files into a folder without inadvertantly dropping it onto another file or subfolder), more squinting at window headers to read the title. And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris, the thing the guys here like about the start menu is that you can just start typing and find the program, rather than having to navigate through 4-5 levels of menus. IMO, that's an improvement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Virginia Tech Shootings, Guns, and Politics The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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That just proves that the market is stupid. People with an IQ below some threshold shouldn't be allowed to use computers, much less buy or decide what operating system it should run. Vista is unfinished crap - borderline beta quality! It's a bloody experiment in dodgy UI design!
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I do not agree at all! I have used Vista 64 since RC2 was released and have found it a much more complete version of Windows than any other version. The File Explorer is on of my favorite enhancements as it is much more flexible, can easily copy files without stopping when you get an error (those open or in use files) and is a much cleaner design. The Favorite Links area is beyond handy! At the beginning I had issues with the way the path was displayed until I got use to it and found how handy it is to navigate without having to play with the folder tree. My only complaint is that issue with it deciding that all my files are photos and showing columns such as Date Taken, Tags, Rating.. The new feature on the start menu to easily find programs is another feature, although small, is a major time saver. The UAC is a problem for me and I shut it off long ago. For my wife though and any novice users out there I would leave it on as it will protecting them from some viruses and trojan software. Some say they have had issues copying files, I have not run into that problem. I have copied large size and large volumes of files and never had any issues other than the lag waiting for it to do its calculations. Overall, I am more than happy with Vista and obviously so are a lot of others as on my websites Vista is now up to 7.67% of my vistors. While not a huge number, it is more than those running all other versions of Windows other than XP, combined. Not bad for being out for only a couple months!
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID - C# project! Latest Tech Blog Post: Want to test Joost (video on demand) - I have invites!
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That just proves that the market is stupid. People with an IQ below some threshold shouldn't be allowed to use computers, much less buy or decide what operating system it should run. Vista is unfinished crap - borderline beta quality! It's a bloody experiment in dodgy UI design!
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I like Vista. At work I've XP Pro and it plain sucks on certain aspects compared to Vista. There are tons of (apparently) small changes. So many that you really can't go back to XP. Moreover, it's the first 64-bit Windows actually working (I can finally have 4 GB of RAM!).
________________________________________________ Personal Blog [ITA] - Tech Blog [ENG] - My Photos ScrewTurn Wiki 2.0.4
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Chris, the thing the guys here like about the start menu is that you can just start typing and find the program, rather than having to navigate through 4-5 levels of menus. IMO, that's an improvement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Virginia Tech Shootings, Guns, and Politics The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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That just proves that the market is stupid. People with an IQ below some threshold shouldn't be allowed to use computers, much less buy or decide what operating system it should run. Vista is unfinished crap - borderline beta quality! It's a bloody experiment in dodgy UI design!
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Hmm, I bet you use linux and firefox. Stop bashing and think again. Vista is stable, it has a good looking UI, maybe a bit overdone at some points but it works for most people. And as always, there are downsides in every product, same goes for Vista. :)
WM. What about weapons of mass-construction? "What? Its an Apple MacBook Pro. They are sexy!" - Paul Watson
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That just proves that the market is stupid. People with an IQ below some threshold shouldn't be allowed to use computers, much less buy or decide what operating system it should run. Vista is unfinished crap - borderline beta quality! It's a bloody experiment in dodgy UI design!
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I have been using vista since beta one, and purchased ultimate the same week it was released and i have had no problems with vista, it has NEVER crashed, and is considerably faster than xp and everything seems to run faster even games run faster at higher graphics settings i dont know if this is due to me have a dual core machine and vista begin better programmed for dual core but its alot more stable and sercure than before and is still better than mac and linux by far for the general home user, and i cant wait till the end of the year for service pack one Lloyd
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Just to make a point or two ... POINT #1 Developers = Web_Programmers + DBA + Net_Programmers + App_Programmers + Game_Programers + ... etc Market = (10*Developers + 100000*Not_Developers); We_Say_Good_OS = Happy(Developers); If (Money != SalesTo(Developers)) { Money = SalesTo(Not_Developers); } If (Money == Good) { MS_Say_Good_OS = True; } else { PutMoreCrap = True; IsBeta = True; MS_Say_Good_OS = True; } POINT #2 I'm not changing to Vista yet. I deal with too many aspects of programming from web, net, db, apps, gui ... and i can't afford to fall into the pit against all known and unknown bugs out there. Vista is mostly a matter of visual preference for my clients and as a developer, i'm forced to create software that will run on a client machine (regardless of Windows version). As a developer however, it's my choice to work on a confortable and bug-free (if that's ever possible) enviroment and Vista are still miles away from that in both ease of use (and i mean for developers) and fast workflow. Vista-Team (i'm not blamming anyone) has focused too much on creating a visual impact on simple users, rather than providing a good OS for the devs. PS: Speaking purely as a Dev, i can only say that at this moment, the OS prompt seems more attactive (in terms of workflow and bug free enviroment) for my work than the entire Vista product series.
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I guess it only sells because it comes with new PC's.. i would never buy that just to upgrade. First thing i did was installing XP with dual boot so i can use both of them.. Guess wich one i use the most. :-) .. XP is a good product so why change. Further i needed XP to remove some Vista files from the harddrive until i found the real administrator account from Vista. Probably it will take a lot of time and frustrations the learn the new envirnoment, like any changes do. greetz. Kurt
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Judah Himango wrote:
the improved shell
You've got to be kidding me?? File copying is just a friggin nightmare if it's more than 10 files and/or more than 10 megabytes. Detail views are very stupid as there is no non-sensitive space except below the last line or right of the rightmost column. That means that if you want to select a bunch of files in the middle, you'll have to either: 1) become religious or 2) use keyboard 1) Sometimes it's possible to conjure up a selection rectangle. I have not yet figured out what god(s) I need to sacrifice a chicken for to make it happen. Try it... 2) Well, I like using my keyboard. But not all the time! Sometimes I use the keyboard, and sometimes I use the mouse (I do drag and drops occasionally). The point is though that I want to choose when. The view selector is utter crap. I think you're supposed to be able to grab the slider just by opening the views drop down menu. I manage to do that sometimes, and thus it's easy to change the view in one go. However, it doesn't always work. See 1) above. There are some features worth having in the shell (I like the grouping and stacking stuff), but that doesn't make it OK to screw up the basic day-to-day things one has come to rely on.
Judah Himango wrote:
excellent bread crumb navigation
Not half as good as the tree view which gives you a spatial sense of sorts. It's useless unless you use the mouse - if you open a drop down menu in one of the crumbs, you have to close the menu with Esc. Left or right won't work. Half finished, and quite superfluous.
Judah Himango wrote:
...what do you find dodgy?
The shell. The thing you actually use in the OS :) I suppose my real beef with Vista is explorer.exe.
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I tend to agree that explorer is a serious pain when trying to sort out my videos, music, or any other BitTorrent downloads. From a dumb user point of view, most would have saved their files in the proper place to begin with and/or use photo software to organize their photos. Finally, as a programmer I spend most of my time using development tools of the trade for the task at hand. Microsoft could not have picked a better name than “explorer”. For the majority of people on this planet, Windows Vista is by far the best operating system available. Sure it is not perfect, but it will continue to be preferred until something better comes along. “Give a kid a hammer and the world becomes a nail.”
Dwayne J. Baldwin
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Judah Himango wrote:
the redesigned start menu
Personally I can't stand it - one of my pet peeves with Vista. FWIW I've gone back to XP SP2. I've been running Vista long enough to feel that I know enough about it so that I should be able to use it fluidly, but I find the entire UI is just harder to use. More clicks, more hunting, more have to be careful about selecting items and dropping them (seems to be hard to drop files into a folder without inadvertantly dropping it onto another file or subfolder), more squinting at window headers to read the title. And UAC? Insane. The final straw was probably me spending an evening trying to work out why an application was failing only to realise that with UAC disabled the app would not work. No error message, no crash. Just a silent failure. If you're going to let me turn off UAC then turn it off and trust me. Don't cripple the functionality. So - in order to trust the the apps I have will run I need to enable UAC. And that constant, never ending "Are you sure you want to run this app" series of dialogs just kills me.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The UAC is a blessing in disguise when compared to the damaging effects of virus, adware, malware, spyware, trojans and other various techniques of software assaults on previous operating systems. "One should never trust when considering a seatbelt or a condom." "Security is inversely proportional to convenience." Have you ever had to fix a computer for a friend or family member? I rest my case.
Dwayne J. Baldwin
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It sounds like you're all complaining about trivial things. At least you get Vista to run for more than a few minutes at a time without some sort of error occurring. Some of you even talk about your apps being slower than when they were on XP. Consider yourselves fortunate that you get Vista to run / install apps. That's one up on me. I'm considering on requesting a percentage of the profits of Vista sales after they release SP1 as I've single handedly contributed several hundred error reports to MS (obviuosly when the Error Reporting tool is reporting to me that it too has encountered an error and needs to close). I'd get the latest updates, but that too has decided to stop working. Still, I've got a pretty coaster for my coffee now! Ian Partridge
