Dinosaurs sailed in ships
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Sure - because he is worked up about it. Otherwise, he'd write different books to those he does. This makes him no different to a 'creationist archeologist', except that he's on the side of the majority. In both cases, they should call themselves what they are, without a prefix that indicates a bias and an axe to grind.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
No, he's on the side of sanity. I would be very happy if that is the same side as the majority, but it is not...
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John Carson wrote:
It was then just a short journey to atheism.
Curiously, my intellectual journey has been just the opposite. I started off as an athiest and was drawn away from it by the intellectual dishonesty of its proponents.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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So you would rather listen to someone teaching stories out of an ancient mythology book?
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
I don't know what you mean by "rather", but, yes, I find the bible (and other religious texts) provides absolutely fascinating insights into the minds of ancient peoples, and how the moral principles upon which all of human civilization stands were established.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Just for the record: the Grand Negus was born in Cincinnati, Ohio and lives in Kentucky by choice.
Well, you can't blame your folks for that. No siree.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Just for the record: the Grand Negus was born in Cincinnati, Ohio and lives in Kentucky by choice.
Well, you can't blame your folks for that. No siree.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Just to provide even handed coverage. Jerry Springer was the mayor of Cincinnati before he went into TV. :->
And was apparently "born in East Finchley tube station, London, England [to] His parents, Margot and Richard Springer, were Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany" and "was forced to resign in 1974 after admitting to hiring a prostitute [in]... a Fort Wright, Kentucky "massage parlor"." :laugh: oh man.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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I don't know what you mean by "rather", but, yes, I find the bible (and other religious texts) provides absolutely fascinating insights into the minds of ancient peoples, and how the moral principles upon which all of human civilization stands were established.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Quote: I don't know what you mean by "rather", but, yes, I find the bible (and other religious texts) provides absolutely fascinating insights into the minds of ancient peoples, and how the moral principles upon which all of human civilization stands were established. Really? How moral is this? "Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34) "But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21) "Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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No, he's on the side of sanity. I would be very happy if that is the same side as the majority, but it is not...
So you disagree with my position, which is that scientist should pursue the facts, and if the facts support a minority view, he should champion it ? Note: I am not saying that the facts absolutely DO suppor the minority, I am saying a scientist shouldn't say 'I accept the science that supports my bias', in either direction.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
I once read a book by this gentleman. It was the most dishonest book I have ever read, bar none. Reading it was actually rather important in my intellectual development. It showed me that Christians, in spite of their representations of personal piety, could be out and out liars. The scales fell from my eyes. From that point on I viewed everything Christians said with the same scepticism I applied to all other claims. It was then just a short journey to atheism.
John Carson
Fascinating generalisation. So, you assume that because what this guy wrote is wrong, he was a liar ( and not just deluded, for example ), which, in turn, meant that all Christians are liars ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So you disagree with my position, which is that scientist should pursue the facts, and if the facts support a minority view, he should champion it ? Note: I am not saying that the facts absolutely DO suppor the minority, I am saying a scientist shouldn't say 'I accept the science that supports my bias', in either direction.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
and if the facts support a minority view, he should champion it ?
I don't know where I disagreed to that? :~
Christian Graus wrote:
I am saying a scientist shouldn't say 'I accept the science that supports my bias', in either direction.
The problem with creationists is that they aren't scientists, so they don't count. Dawkins is a scientist, which is his entire argument basically.
-- For External Use Only
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Christian Graus wrote:
and if the facts support a minority view, he should champion it ?
I don't know where I disagreed to that? :~
Christian Graus wrote:
I am saying a scientist shouldn't say 'I accept the science that supports my bias', in either direction.
The problem with creationists is that they aren't scientists, so they don't count. Dawkins is a scientist, which is his entire argument basically.
-- For External Use Only
"No, he's on the side of sanity. I would be very happy if that is the same side as the majority, but it is not..." To me, this means that people who agree with you, are allowed to have a biased approach and that openly.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
The problem with creationists is that they aren't scientists, so they don't count.
Perhaps. That is not my point. My point is, scientific opinion changes because of people on the fringes. Imagine Gallileo calling himself a 'round Earth astronomer' and public opinion on him and the books written by 'flat earth astronomers'. My point is they should all be astonomers, even if they violently disagree, they should be pushing the barrow of their science, and not the bias they use science to prove. Yes, this applies more to the creationists, but I still think Dawkins, smart as he is, also is clearly more obsessed with religion than he is science.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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"No, he's on the side of sanity. I would be very happy if that is the same side as the majority, but it is not..." To me, this means that people who agree with you, are allowed to have a biased approach and that openly.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
The problem with creationists is that they aren't scientists, so they don't count.
Perhaps. That is not my point. My point is, scientific opinion changes because of people on the fringes. Imagine Gallileo calling himself a 'round Earth astronomer' and public opinion on him and the books written by 'flat earth astronomers'. My point is they should all be astonomers, even if they violently disagree, they should be pushing the barrow of their science, and not the bias they use science to prove. Yes, this applies more to the creationists, but I still think Dawkins, smart as he is, also is clearly more obsessed with religion than he is science.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
To me, this means that people who agree with you, are allowed to have a biased approach and that openly.
When did facts become "bias"? :~
-- Presented in doublevision (where drunk)
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Thats a long and scary list. Just goes to show what a title is worth. Now, youre (notice I got the wrong spelling again, just for you) little book is a fun read but accepting every single thing in their(notice spelling again) as the only facts and ignoring common sence is a great example of unthinking. Why didnt the dinosaurs eat the cats or other smaller animals on the arc? See? thats called thinking and its pretty obvious your little fairy tale has the odd logical hole.
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Quote: I don't know what you mean by "rather", but, yes, I find the bible (and other religious texts) provides absolutely fascinating insights into the minds of ancient peoples, and how the moral principles upon which all of human civilization stands were established. Really? How moral is this? "Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34) "But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21) "Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
As I said - fascinating. To the people at the time, I'm sure it was very moral considering the situation human civilization was just emerging from. Slavery was obviously a given, nothing immoral about that, and considering the primitive understanding of biology that existed at the time, it is altogether understanable that they would have seen activities that seemed to correlate with disease, such as sexual promiscuity, as being something to punish. As for keeping women quiet in at least one place - I don't think the rationale for that is too much of a mystery.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Fascinating generalisation. So, you assume that because what this guy wrote is wrong, he was a liar ( and not just deluded, for example ), which, in turn, meant that all Christians are liars ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Fascinating generalisation. So, you assume that because what this guy wrote is wrong, he was a liar ( and not just deluded, for example ), which, in turn, meant that all Christians are liars ?
Read what I said: "I viewed everything Christians said with the same scepticism I applied to all other claims." I view Christians in the same way I view other people. Previously, I had ascribed them more credibility than others, believing them less likely to lie. Incidentally, I didn't just read Parker. I looked at quite a lot of young-earth Creationist literature and it was all deeply dishonest. As for being deluded vs lying, I didn't simply read Parker's book and decide it was nonsense. At the time, I didn't have any strong opinions or much knowledge on the Creation-Evolution question. So what I did was spend weeks in the library chasing down the original articles that Parker had cited. The basic thrust of the book was that even evolutionists admitted that the case for evolution was very weak. On the face of it, this seemed unlikely, so I wanted to see what they really believed. It turned out that in virtually every case, Parker had seriously distorted what the evolutionists had said. From memory, only one of them (writing in about 1920) actually suggested that the case for evolution was weak, and then only with regard to the evolution of plants. We can argue about exactly what constitutes a lie and whether it is or isn't a lie if someone is so deluded that they can't tell the difference between a truth and a lie. But by any normal standard, Parker is an out and out liar. -- modified at 21:09 Monday 28th May, 2007
John Carson
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Dawkins is obviously pushing a barrow as well, the title of his last book proves that. I'm saying that the correct title is 'biologist', or 'archeologist'. The prefix is, in both cases, saying 'so long as it fits in with what I believe'. Most archeologists or biologists will believe in evolution, obviously. That's not my point.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Dawkins is obviously pushing a barrow as well, the title of his last book proves that. I'm saying that the correct title is 'biologist', or 'archeologist'. The prefix is, in both cases, saying 'so long as it fits in with what I believe'. Most archeologists or biologists will believe in evolution, obviously. That's not my point.
"Evolutionary biologist" is meant to denote Dawkins field of study, not to declare (except incidentally) his stance on the creation-evolution issue. In the same way, we have "marine biologists" and "plant biologists" and various other sorts of biologists.
John Carson
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This list in it's entirety is proof that people can be really smart, yet still see the world through their personal filters. Dr. Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist Isn't that like a feminist biologist ? I met one of those, she insisted there were no brain differences between men and women, because that's what she believed. The facts made no difference to her.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
yet still see the world through their personal filters.
Everyone see the world through their "personal filters" including you, and all atheists. Is that so hard to realize? You are all full of your selves. Its shameful.
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And was apparently "born in East Finchley tube station, London, England [to] His parents, Margot and Richard Springer, were Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany" and "was forced to resign in 1974 after admitting to hiring a prostitute [in]... a Fort Wright, Kentucky "massage parlor"." :laugh: oh man.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
The story I heard is that he wrote a check. :laugh:
I would teach the world that science is not about truth, but is about trying to get closer to the truth. - Kathy Sykes