In response to our declining christain morality
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
The problem as I see it, is that organized religion keeps changing its goals and philosophies along the way in an effort to stay viable and maintain control over the unwashed masses.
most of us bathe, honest.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Thats really what its all about.
you're delusional. "This" is about community, charity, common belief systems.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have to disagree with your anti-religious statements because my beliefs require me too nor would debating about those statements sway either of our opinions so I will not discuss them further. Those statements aside, I really disagree with your statement quoted below.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
As if I will concisously suffer for Billions of years because I chose to use my brain instead of blindly following a book full of non-sensical contradictions that don't apply to modern life.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are trying to discredit the bible as a good source of moral values in today's world. Many of the values written in the bible (New Testament especially) is a basis of moral framework that is the US and many other countries today. Are the ideas of loving your neighbor, enemy, etc not revelant in today's world? Granted, you may not have learned your morals from the Bible (or some other religious source), I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did. However, I do agree with your statments about "social anomie". I propose that another big source of the problem is that people are no longer being held accountable for their actions. If someone is doing something wrong they are not being called out by others. It is kind of like parents not disciplining their children for doing things that are not right. Many of these people committing the suicide do not have a support structure to fall back on. They sit at home watching TV instead of creating supportive relationships to help. For many people, religion helps them get out into the world to meet others like themselves. This gives them the support structure they need.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
bwhittington wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are trying to discredit the bible as a good source of moral values in today's world. Many of the values written in the bible (New Testament especially) is a basis of moral framework that is the US and many other countries today. Are the ideas of loving your neighbor, enemy, etc not revelant in today's world? Granted, you may not have learned your morals from the Bible (or some other religious source), I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did.
It is mostly the sexual mores of Christianity that I take issue with. Also, I see a lot of nice cars in the church parking lot where they are worshiping a guy who probably wouldn't even own one if he was alive today. The ideas of loving your neighbor had to exist before the bible because someone had to think them up in order to write them in bible. My guess is that Jesus was a stoner, that's why he preached all those hippie values.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
"This" is about community, charity, common belief systems.
Not in my experience... :| We're going to have to agree to disagree
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Not in my experience...
Something tells me it's somewhat limited...
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Simple. Because if you look at religion outside of the context of the religion itself you can see how it has been molded / modified by man and not by an omnipotent being.
For arguments sake, assume that God exists and revealed a message to humankind would you be able to see that (using your reasoning and criteria for truth) from where you are standing and if so would you follow that path?
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Why would God give people the ability to reason only to ask them to disregard their reason in favor of blind faith.
From an Islamic perspective, you reason so that you may discern the true message from falsehood. Once you are convinced of that, you do not go on questioning every detail (especially in the matters of the unseen) because you are already convinced it is from the creator. That is not to say you do not try to understand it.
Who is the creator? Finding Allah (Video) Surah Al-An'aam (Ayah 74-110)
A.A. wrote:
From an Islamic perspective, you reason so that you may discern the true message from falsehood. Once you are convinced of that, you do not go on questioning every detail (especially in the matters of the unseen) because you are already convinced it is from the creator. That is not to say you do not try to understand it.
So you use your brain to make a conclusin and then never question that conclusion?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Not in my experience...
Something tells me it's somewhat limited...
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
"This" is about community, charity, common belief systems.
Not in my experience... :| We're going to have to agree to disagree
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Not in my experience...
that is sad. my experience is much different. Next time you're in Indianapolis, join me at St. Monica[^] - an interesting Roman Catholic Church. Regarding the, "not in my experience" comment, you obviously aren't aware of church prganizations sunh as, St. Vincent de Paul[^] - I'm heavily involved and it is pure charity, service to the poor regardless of nationality, regardless of church affiliation (I have provided services to Muslims), and of citizenship (while I rale against illegals, I help them as well).
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Something tells me it's somewhat limited...
As opposed to your vast and obviously superior experience?? :rolleyes:
Mike Mullikin wrote:
As opposed to your vast and obviously superior experience??
You made a value judgement on religion based on your experience that was incorrect. Hence my comment. If you had said something like "Based on my experience, shopping at Wal-Mart is a pleasure", I would have said the same.
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
You win, there is a 0.000000009% chance that a biblical heaven and hell exist.
I can't say with 100% certainty either. I'm just curious as to how you come up with 0% or 0.000000009%. You said you reasoning is entirely based on the proper use of your brain. I'm astonished at its capabilities and I just want to know your methodologies.
Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty. But it is just some made up fairy tale. Just as I could say people who go to heaven spend all day with Bill Gates playing Xbox Live and having sex with 40 virgins. Just because more people will tell you they beleive your version doesn't make it more likely. Its funny how you think you're going to heavan yet you don't want to die.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Not in my experience...
that is sad. my experience is much different. Next time you're in Indianapolis, join me at St. Monica[^] - an interesting Roman Catholic Church. Regarding the, "not in my experience" comment, you obviously aren't aware of church prganizations sunh as, St. Vincent de Paul[^] - I'm heavily involved and it is pure charity, service to the poor regardless of nationality, regardless of church affiliation (I have provided services to Muslims), and of citizenship (while I rale against illegals, I help them as well).
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
As opposed to your vast and obviously superior experience??
You made a value judgement on religion based on your experience that was incorrect. Hence my comment. If you had said something like "Based on my experience, shopping at Wal-Mart is a pleasure", I would have said the same.
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bwhittington wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are trying to discredit the bible as a good source of moral values in today's world. Many of the values written in the bible (New Testament especially) is a basis of moral framework that is the US and many other countries today. Are the ideas of loving your neighbor, enemy, etc not revelant in today's world? Granted, you may not have learned your morals from the Bible (or some other religious source), I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did.
It is mostly the sexual mores of Christianity that I take issue with. Also, I see a lot of nice cars in the church parking lot where they are worshiping a guy who probably wouldn't even own one if he was alive today. The ideas of loving your neighbor had to exist before the bible because someone had to think them up in order to write them in bible. My guess is that Jesus was a stoner, that's why he preached all those hippie values.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
The ideas of loving your neighbor had to exist before the bible because someone had to think them up in order to write them in bible.
I can agree with you on that point. Using the Bible as an example, Jesus was probably not the first person to say many of these things. Simply put Jesus was simply the first person with a lot of influence on a lot of people to say many of these ideals and someone was enamored enough to write them down for the first time. Do you know of another document in the Christian religion that has these items written down before the Bible? Is there another text from another religion that has these ideals that was written from the Bible? (I will admit I do not know and there could be, but my point is the same.) In many cases, ancient books that are used in religions for moral values were probably the first ones written that helped eliminate the need for the word of mouth values that passed before.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why is it incorrect? Because you say so??
Because you have limited experience and have made a value judgement with a lack of data. I thought you condemned such things! :rolleyes:
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Meh! For every anecdotal plus - I can point out an anecdotal minus. In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
What experience do you have with organized religion that would make you come to this conclusion?
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
I thought you were serious
Were you serious about the odds you calculating regarding the probability of an afterlife? I'd like to see the mathematical proof.
id like to see the odds of just a few crazies getting their rantings and delusions into the Holy Book. or an explanation of why not a single prophet or new gospel has been written in the past 1000 years or more. did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding? where are the new age burning bushes? how come so much "happened" in the beginning of christianity then all of a sudden nothing?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why is it incorrect? Because you say so??
Because you have limited experience and have made a value judgement with a lack of data. I thought you condemned such things! :rolleyes:
Red Stateler wrote:
Because you have limited experience
As does every human on the planet... yet we ALL make value judgments. Or do you claim that religious types (Christians in particular) have more and better experiences and thus make the correct value judgments? :rolleyes:
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Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty. But it is just some made up fairy tale. Just as I could say people who go to heaven spend all day with Bill Gates playing Xbox Live and having sex with 40 virgins. Just because more people will tell you they beleive your version doesn't make it more likely. Its funny how you think you're going to heavan yet you don't want to die.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty.
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
But it is just some made up fairy tale.
Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
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Meh! For every anecdotal plus - I can point out an anecdotal minus. In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
then you're completely missing out. I'm sad for you, you're missing out on something special.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Because you have limited experience
As does every human on the planet... yet we ALL make value judgments. Or do you claim that religious types (Christians in particular) have more and better experiences and thus make the correct value judgments? :rolleyes:
What experience do you have with religion that brings you to your conclusions? I went to college, so I've had plenty of experience with atheism.
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id like to see the odds of just a few crazies getting their rantings and delusions into the Holy Book. or an explanation of why not a single prophet or new gospel has been written in the past 1000 years or more. did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding? where are the new age burning bushes? how come so much "happened" in the beginning of christianity then all of a sudden nothing?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
VonHagNDaz wrote:
did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding?
Secular humanism is barely a century old.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
What experience do you have with organized religion that would make you come to this conclusion?
I'm capable of reading the news. I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other. I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws. I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East. I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis. Need I go on?