In response to our declining christain morality
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
As opposed to your vast and obviously superior experience??
You made a value judgement on religion based on your experience that was incorrect. Hence my comment. If you had said something like "Based on my experience, shopping at Wal-Mart is a pleasure", I would have said the same.
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bwhittington wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are trying to discredit the bible as a good source of moral values in today's world. Many of the values written in the bible (New Testament especially) is a basis of moral framework that is the US and many other countries today. Are the ideas of loving your neighbor, enemy, etc not revelant in today's world? Granted, you may not have learned your morals from the Bible (or some other religious source), I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did.
It is mostly the sexual mores of Christianity that I take issue with. Also, I see a lot of nice cars in the church parking lot where they are worshiping a guy who probably wouldn't even own one if he was alive today. The ideas of loving your neighbor had to exist before the bible because someone had to think them up in order to write them in bible. My guess is that Jesus was a stoner, that's why he preached all those hippie values.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
The ideas of loving your neighbor had to exist before the bible because someone had to think them up in order to write them in bible.
I can agree with you on that point. Using the Bible as an example, Jesus was probably not the first person to say many of these things. Simply put Jesus was simply the first person with a lot of influence on a lot of people to say many of these ideals and someone was enamored enough to write them down for the first time. Do you know of another document in the Christian religion that has these items written down before the Bible? Is there another text from another religion that has these ideals that was written from the Bible? (I will admit I do not know and there could be, but my point is the same.) In many cases, ancient books that are used in religions for moral values were probably the first ones written that helped eliminate the need for the word of mouth values that passed before.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why is it incorrect? Because you say so??
Because you have limited experience and have made a value judgement with a lack of data. I thought you condemned such things! :rolleyes:
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Meh! For every anecdotal plus - I can point out an anecdotal minus. In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
What experience do you have with organized religion that would make you come to this conclusion?
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
I thought you were serious
Were you serious about the odds you calculating regarding the probability of an afterlife? I'd like to see the mathematical proof.
id like to see the odds of just a few crazies getting their rantings and delusions into the Holy Book. or an explanation of why not a single prophet or new gospel has been written in the past 1000 years or more. did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding? where are the new age burning bushes? how come so much "happened" in the beginning of christianity then all of a sudden nothing?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why is it incorrect? Because you say so??
Because you have limited experience and have made a value judgement with a lack of data. I thought you condemned such things! :rolleyes:
Red Stateler wrote:
Because you have limited experience
As does every human on the planet... yet we ALL make value judgments. Or do you claim that religious types (Christians in particular) have more and better experiences and thus make the correct value judgments? :rolleyes:
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Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty. But it is just some made up fairy tale. Just as I could say people who go to heaven spend all day with Bill Gates playing Xbox Live and having sex with 40 virgins. Just because more people will tell you they beleive your version doesn't make it more likely. Its funny how you think you're going to heavan yet you don't want to die.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty.
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
But it is just some made up fairy tale.
Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
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Meh! For every anecdotal plus - I can point out an anecdotal minus. In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
then you're completely missing out. I'm sad for you, you're missing out on something special.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Because you have limited experience
As does every human on the planet... yet we ALL make value judgments. Or do you claim that religious types (Christians in particular) have more and better experiences and thus make the correct value judgments? :rolleyes:
What experience do you have with religion that brings you to your conclusions? I went to college, so I've had plenty of experience with atheism.
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id like to see the odds of just a few crazies getting their rantings and delusions into the Holy Book. or an explanation of why not a single prophet or new gospel has been written in the past 1000 years or more. did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding? where are the new age burning bushes? how come so much "happened" in the beginning of christianity then all of a sudden nothing?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
VonHagNDaz wrote:
did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding?
Secular humanism is barely a century old.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
What experience do you have with organized religion that would make you come to this conclusion?
I'm capable of reading the news. I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other. I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws. I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East. I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis. Need I go on?
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding?
Secular humanism is barely a century old.
then where the hell was he hiding before?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
then you're completely missing out. I'm sad for you, you're missing out on something special.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty.
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
But it is just some made up fairy tale.
Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Red Stateler wrote:
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Red Stateler wrote:
ToddHileHoffer wrote: But it is just some made up fairy tale. Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
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bwhittington wrote:
I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did.
And those ancestors that predate religion? Where they completely immoral at all times or did religion just happen when people needed it? How many religions have emerged when people were a-ok? None.
"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them." - Anonymous Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
I don't really have a direct answer to your questions but let me pose this one to you. When would our ancestors have been a-okay? Throughout history the human existance has been rather tenuous. In ancient times, records indicate that our ancestors had a hell of a life. Constant struggles for food, water, shelter, and war against rival humans. Humans needed to figure stuff out. I am assuming that morals and religion were a couple of those things that helped them to survive. PS. I am trying to take my religious beliefs out of the discussion. I am just trying to get my point across that Religious texts can still be relevant to today's society.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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I'm capable of reading the news. I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other. I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws. I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East. I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis. Need I go on?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'm capable of reading the news.
Ah...So then you admit to having no first-hand experience?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other.
So you're applying your observations of Islam to Christianity?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws.
Can you give some examples and demonstrate how Christians have usurped the judiciary (since they interpret laws) to exhert "control"? Can you reconcile that with the ACLU?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East.
I don't recall him invoking the name of God for a justification of war. He certainly invokes God, but why does that matter and how is that relevant (other than the fact that it offends your sensibilities.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis.
As moral and spritual leaders, that is a role of every church...To offer spiritual guidance.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Need I go on?
Yes, because you've basically admitted to making value judgements based on the media and by applying Islam's behavior to Christianity. You also avoided my question as to what experience you have with religion to qualify your value judgement. Experience with media isn't worth anything.
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I don't really have a direct answer to your questions but let me pose this one to you. When would our ancestors have been a-okay? Throughout history the human existance has been rather tenuous. In ancient times, records indicate that our ancestors had a hell of a life. Constant struggles for food, water, shelter, and war against rival humans. Humans needed to figure stuff out. I am assuming that morals and religion were a couple of those things that helped them to survive. PS. I am trying to take my religious beliefs out of the discussion. I am just trying to get my point across that Religious texts can still be relevant to today's society.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
I'm not saying that things were always okay, but they could not have been dark and gloomy all the time. People don't write down in journals things that are boring and mundane. I'm not saying religion is evil, I am saying that it can be unnecessary if you have faith and laws to protect you.
"There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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then where the hell was he hiding before?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
VonHagNDaz wrote:
then where the hell was he hiding before?
In the devil.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Red Stateler wrote:
ToddHileHoffer wrote: But it is just some made up fairy tale. Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Dude...You just spent this whole thread asserting your indisputably certainty that Christianity is a made up fairy tale...
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
Jesus did.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm sad for you
Save it, I'm perfectly capable of doing and enjoying good deeds without the need of supernatural creators or self proclaimed prophets.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'm perfectly capable of doing and enjoying good deeds without the need of supernatural creators or self proclaimed prophets.
if that were honestly true you wouldn't expend quite so much energy to promote an "anti" posture. but, believe what you will, I do.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.