In response to our declining christain morality
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
did the rise of secular humanism force him into hiding?
Secular humanism is barely a century old.
then where the hell was he hiding before?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the big picture, I see organized religions trying to control people more than actually help them.
then you're completely missing out. I'm sad for you, you're missing out on something special.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Wow. Red Stateler, here's the deal. Neither one of us knows what happens when you die. My point is that there is no way to say with any certainty what will happen. Yet, Chritians do try to say with certainty.
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
But it is just some made up fairy tale.
Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Red Stateler wrote:
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Red Stateler wrote:
ToddHileHoffer wrote: But it is just some made up fairy tale. Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
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bwhittington wrote:
I would be willing to bet that someone in your ancestry did.
And those ancestors that predate religion? Where they completely immoral at all times or did religion just happen when people needed it? How many religions have emerged when people were a-ok? None.
"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them." - Anonymous Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
I don't really have a direct answer to your questions but let me pose this one to you. When would our ancestors have been a-okay? Throughout history the human existance has been rather tenuous. In ancient times, records indicate that our ancestors had a hell of a life. Constant struggles for food, water, shelter, and war against rival humans. Humans needed to figure stuff out. I am assuming that morals and religion were a couple of those things that helped them to survive. PS. I am trying to take my religious beliefs out of the discussion. I am just trying to get my point across that Religious texts can still be relevant to today's society.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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I'm capable of reading the news. I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other. I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws. I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East. I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis. Need I go on?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'm capable of reading the news.
Ah...So then you admit to having no first-hand experience?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other.
So you're applying your observations of Islam to Christianity?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws.
Can you give some examples and demonstrate how Christians have usurped the judiciary (since they interpret laws) to exhert "control"? Can you reconcile that with the ACLU?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East.
I don't recall him invoking the name of God for a justification of war. He certainly invokes God, but why does that matter and how is that relevant (other than the fact that it offends your sensibilities.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis.
As moral and spritual leaders, that is a role of every church...To offer spiritual guidance.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Need I go on?
Yes, because you've basically admitted to making value judgements based on the media and by applying Islam's behavior to Christianity. You also avoided my question as to what experience you have with religion to qualify your value judgement. Experience with media isn't worth anything.
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I don't really have a direct answer to your questions but let me pose this one to you. When would our ancestors have been a-okay? Throughout history the human existance has been rather tenuous. In ancient times, records indicate that our ancestors had a hell of a life. Constant struggles for food, water, shelter, and war against rival humans. Humans needed to figure stuff out. I am assuming that morals and religion were a couple of those things that helped them to survive. PS. I am trying to take my religious beliefs out of the discussion. I am just trying to get my point across that Religious texts can still be relevant to today's society.
Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
I'm not saying that things were always okay, but they could not have been dark and gloomy all the time. People don't write down in journals things that are boring and mundane. I'm not saying religion is evil, I am saying that it can be unnecessary if you have faith and laws to protect you.
"There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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then where the hell was he hiding before?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
VonHagNDaz wrote:
then where the hell was he hiding before?
In the devil.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Duh. However, Christians refer to their beliefs as based on "faith" which, by definition, is belief without verifiable certainty. Atheists (including yourself) also espouse the truthiness of their beliefs. However, atheists reject the notion of faith (erroneously claiming their beliefs are based on "science") and assert their religion as verifiable fact, as you have demonstrated here. In reality, the belief that atheism transcends faith makes it into a fundamentalist belief system akin to Islam, whereby questioning or holding an alternate belief makes you into a heretic and a fool.
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Red Stateler wrote:
ToddHileHoffer wrote: But it is just some made up fairy tale. Christianity is based on historical texts. To dismiss it so quickly as a "made up fairy tale" would force you to question history in general as a "made up fairy tale". You're welcome to do that, but I might start calling you Matthew Faithful.
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Dude...You just spent this whole thread asserting your indisputably certainty that Christianity is a made up fairy tale...
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
Jesus did.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm sad for you
Save it, I'm perfectly capable of doing and enjoying good deeds without the need of supernatural creators or self proclaimed prophets.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'm perfectly capable of doing and enjoying good deeds without the need of supernatural creators or self proclaimed prophets.
if that were honestly true you wouldn't expend quite so much energy to promote an "anti" posture. but, believe what you will, I do.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
use our god given intelligence, imagination and technology
Geez man - I don't need this kind of help. :rolleyes: "Red" has his "Matthew Faithfull", I apparently have my "ToddHileHoffer". Maybe the Buddhists are onto something with this Ying-Yang stuff... :^)
:laugh::laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
That is nonsense. I'm not an atheist. You're still arguing with that other guy. I have enough common sense to know that I don't know and I'm honest enough to admit it.
Dude...You just spent this whole thread asserting your indisputably certainty that Christianity is a made up fairy tale...
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Not the entire bible, just the parts about heaven and hell and the after-life. There is no historical text of heaven because no one has been there and come back down to Earth.
Jesus did.
Red Stateler wrote:
Dude...You just spent this whole thread asserting your indisputably certainty that Christianity is a made up fairy tale...
Whatever, I guess your going to spend eternity in heaven when you die. This notion is so ludicrous that the English language doesn't provide me with enough words to explain the absurdity of your beleifs. Just the concept of heaven is so ludicrous. Does heaven even have buildings? What form of matter is your soul made of? Will people have clothes? Is their gravity in heaven? C'mon man, the bibical versions of heaven and hell are complete fairy tale. That's a fact jack.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'm capable of reading the news.
Ah...So then you admit to having no first-hand experience?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how organized factions of Muslims are breeding entire generations of terrorists. I see how the Jews and Muslims in and around Israel are bound and determined to kill each other.
So you're applying your observations of Islam to Christianity?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see how the religious right in the US makes every effort to change and re-interpret laws.
Can you give some examples and demonstrate how Christians have usurped the judiciary (since they interpret laws) to exhert "control"? Can you reconcile that with the ACLU?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see our Christian POTUS (with the support of his church) invoke the name of his god as validation for our actions in the Middle East.
I don't recall him invoking the name of God for a justification of war. He certainly invokes God, but why does that matter and how is that relevant (other than the fact that it offends your sensibilities.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see the Vatican hand down edicts to Catholics around the world on a regular basis.
As moral and spritual leaders, that is a role of every church...To offer spiritual guidance.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Need I go on?
Yes, because you've basically admitted to making value judgements based on the media and by applying Islam's behavior to Christianity. You also avoided my question as to what experience you have with religion to qualify your value judgement. Experience with media isn't worth anything.
Red Stateler wrote:
Ah...So then you admit to having no first-hand experience?
Again you assume too much. My personal experiences are only one part of my overall "experience" and are not relavent to the conversation.
Red Stateler wrote:
So you're applying your observations of Islam to Christianity?
No, but then again I wrote "organized religion" not "Christianity". However, I do apply my observations of both when using terms like "organized religion". Don't you?
Red Stateler wrote:
Can you give some examples and demonstrate how Christians have usurped the judiciary (since they interpret laws) to exhert "control"?
Abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, school prayer, school curriculum's (evolution)...
Red Stateler wrote:
I don't recall him invoking the name of God for a justification of war.
...then Google for it. The man invokes the name of God in just about every speech he makes.
Red Stateler wrote:
why does that matter and how is that relevant (other than the fact that it offends your sensibilities.
He is in "control" of a lot of peoples lives and futures when sends soldiers off to do his bidding.
Red Stateler wrote:
As moral and spritual leaders, that is a role of every church...To offer spiritual guidance.
You say Toe-May-Toe, I say Toe-Mah-Toe!
Red Stateler wrote:
Yes, because you've basically admitted to making value judgements based on the media and by applying Islam's behavior to Christianity. You also avoided my question as to what experience you have with religion to qualify your value judgement. Experience with media isn't worth anything.
X| Complete blather! X|
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Red Stateler wrote:
Dude...You just spent this whole thread asserting your indisputably certainty that Christianity is a made up fairy tale...
Whatever, I guess your going to spend eternity in heaven when you die. This notion is so ludicrous that the English language doesn't provide me with enough words to explain the absurdity of your beleifs. Just the concept of heaven is so ludicrous. Does heaven even have buildings? What form of matter is your soul made of? Will people have clothes? Is their gravity in heaven? C'mon man, the bibical versions of heaven and hell are complete fairy tale. That's a fact jack.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
the bibical versions of heaven and hell are complete fairy tale
Uhhhh...What are those, exactly? :~
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
the bibical versions of heaven and hell are complete fairy tale
Uhhhh...What are those, exactly? :~
Red Stateler wrote:
Uhhhh...What are those, exactly?
Heavenis where Christians claim to go when they die. Even if you have no concept of what it is. You get to meet your savior since he doesn't exist on Earth.
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
then where the hell was he hiding before?
In the devil.
Red Stateler wrote:
In the devil.
so 2 imaginary friends equal one omnipotent being?
------------------------------ I win because I have the most fun in life... "God - the imaginary friend for adults..." - George Carlin If Science came from religion, then why do Christians believe Jesus is magic?
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Red Stateler wrote:
Ah...So then you admit to having no first-hand experience?
Again you assume too much. My personal experiences are only one part of my overall "experience" and are not relavent to the conversation.
Red Stateler wrote:
So you're applying your observations of Islam to Christianity?
No, but then again I wrote "organized religion" not "Christianity". However, I do apply my observations of both when using terms like "organized religion". Don't you?
Red Stateler wrote:
Can you give some examples and demonstrate how Christians have usurped the judiciary (since they interpret laws) to exhert "control"?
Abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, school prayer, school curriculum's (evolution)...
Red Stateler wrote:
I don't recall him invoking the name of God for a justification of war.
...then Google for it. The man invokes the name of God in just about every speech he makes.
Red Stateler wrote:
why does that matter and how is that relevant (other than the fact that it offends your sensibilities.
He is in "control" of a lot of peoples lives and futures when sends soldiers off to do his bidding.
Red Stateler wrote:
As moral and spritual leaders, that is a role of every church...To offer spiritual guidance.
You say Toe-May-Toe, I say Toe-Mah-Toe!
Red Stateler wrote:
Yes, because you've basically admitted to making value judgements based on the media and by applying Islam's behavior to Christianity. You also avoided my question as to what experience you have with religion to qualify your value judgement. Experience with media isn't worth anything.
X| Complete blather! X|
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Again you assume too much. My personal experiences are only one part of my overall "experience" and are not relavent to the conversation.
Actually it's very relevant. You're making a value judgement about religion apaprently without any first-hand experience. You're passing judgement on Christianity based on media reports of Islam. That's just lame.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
No, but then again I wrote "organized religion" not "Christianity". However, I do apply my observations of both when using terms like "organized religion". Don't you?
If you pass judgment on all organized religions based on one, then there is obviously a problem since each particular religion is a subset of organized religion and its properties therefore do not necessarily apply to the whole. Do we need a class diagram?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, school prayer, school curriculum's (evolution)...
Yes, those are all fine examples of how secular humanists have reinterpreted laws. Those laws, being on the books and properly democratically derived, have all been overthrown at one point or another by secular humanists attempting to control the majority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with laws that reflect Christian morality. In fact, by saying that any of these laws are invalid for that fact only serves to push your competing secular humanist agenda.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
...then Google for it. The man invokes the name of God in just about every speech he makes.
So what? That offends your sensibilities, so suddenly religion is a method to control the unwashed masses? Where on earth do you get that from? Besides, you changed it from invoking God to using God to justify war in the middle east.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
He is in "control" of a lot of peoples lives and futures when sends soldiers off to do his bidding.
So? If he were a secular humanist and sent people to war then that would be OK? I have to say that everything you're claiming here basically speaks to one single point. You are a secular humanist and your values are simply in competition with Christianity. Not having any personal experience with Christianity or basis for you opinions against it (besides the media), you're
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Give me a break. I'm telling you right now. When you die there is 0% chance that the after life (if there is one) is as described in the bible. There is flat out no chance that you will be in heaven with Jesus and I will spend eternity rotting in hell. As if I will concisously suffer for Billions of years because I chose to use my brain instead of blindly following a book full of non-sensical contradictions that don't apply to modern life. Much of biblical morality was needed in a society without birth control. The Bible was a great framework for creation of a stable society. But times change, and Christianity is becoming increasingly more irrelevant. I would argue that increasing "social anomie" - Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals - is a major part of our problem. Since our victory in World War II, Americans do lack purpose. No matter how money you make, you're still gonna die, so what's the point? The solution is not to find Jesus, but rather for all of us to use our god given intelligence, imagination and technology to figure out why the hell we are here in the first place. IMHO, the purpose of humanity might just be to figure out the purpose of humanity. Once we figure that out, perhaps we can start living for each other instead of living in a state of purposelessness and these murders / suicides will decrease.
We've been here before but clearly you missed it:laugh:
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
I'm telling you right now. When you die there is 0% chance that the after life (if there is one) is as described in the bible
The problem is the 'I' right at the beggining. You speak on your own authority. Jesus speaks on the authority of his father in heaven. Neither your opinion nor your reasoning founded on your assumptions and your humanly limited understanding can ever challenge that. Nor can mine or anyone elses. You call the Bible
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
a book full of non-sensical contradictions that don't apply to modern life
but placing any value on that statement assumes you understand the Bible sufficiently to make such an assessment. If it is the word of God then we have no reason to believe that this should be the case. The logical bear trap of not being able to rationalise about the existence or otherwise of God without making the assumption either that he does or does not exist, beforehand, can't be escaped. I didn't just choose to use my brain. I use the brain I was given because that's what I was given it for. If the modern world is deviating more and more from the teachings of Christ then it is the world that is in trouble not the teachings of its creator.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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We've been here before but clearly you missed it:laugh:
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
I'm telling you right now. When you die there is 0% chance that the after life (if there is one) is as described in the bible
The problem is the 'I' right at the beggining. You speak on your own authority. Jesus speaks on the authority of his father in heaven. Neither your opinion nor your reasoning founded on your assumptions and your humanly limited understanding can ever challenge that. Nor can mine or anyone elses. You call the Bible
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
a book full of non-sensical contradictions that don't apply to modern life
but placing any value on that statement assumes you understand the Bible sufficiently to make such an assessment. If it is the word of God then we have no reason to believe that this should be the case. The logical bear trap of not being able to rationalise about the existence or otherwise of God without making the assumption either that he does or does not exist, beforehand, can't be escaped. I didn't just choose to use my brain. I use the brain I was given because that's what I was given it for. If the modern world is deviating more and more from the teachings of Christ then it is the world that is in trouble not the teachings of its creator.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Wow I wish I was looking foward to death like you man. Damn won't death be great. Christians are full shit. I've never met one that really wants to die. Even though they tell you they are going to paradise.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The problem is the 'I' right at the beggining. You speak on your own authority. Jesus speaks on the authority of his father in heaven. Neither your opinion nor your reasoning founded on your assumptions and your humanly limited understanding can ever challenge that. Nor can mine or anyone elses.
You speak nonsense. And you are so easily manipulated. I feel sorry for you.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Again you assume too much. My personal experiences are only one part of my overall "experience" and are not relavent to the conversation.
Actually it's very relevant. You're making a value judgement about religion apaprently without any first-hand experience. You're passing judgement on Christianity based on media reports of Islam. That's just lame.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
No, but then again I wrote "organized religion" not "Christianity". However, I do apply my observations of both when using terms like "organized religion". Don't you?
If you pass judgment on all organized religions based on one, then there is obviously a problem since each particular religion is a subset of organized religion and its properties therefore do not necessarily apply to the whole. Do we need a class diagram?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, school prayer, school curriculum's (evolution)...
Yes, those are all fine examples of how secular humanists have reinterpreted laws. Those laws, being on the books and properly democratically derived, have all been overthrown at one point or another by secular humanists attempting to control the majority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with laws that reflect Christian morality. In fact, by saying that any of these laws are invalid for that fact only serves to push your competing secular humanist agenda.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
...then Google for it. The man invokes the name of God in just about every speech he makes.
So what? That offends your sensibilities, so suddenly religion is a method to control the unwashed masses? Where on earth do you get that from? Besides, you changed it from invoking God to using God to justify war in the middle east.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
He is in "control" of a lot of peoples lives and futures when sends soldiers off to do his bidding.
So? If he were a secular humanist and sent people to war then that would be OK? I have to say that everything you're claiming here basically speaks to one single point. You are a secular humanist and your values are simply in competition with Christianity. Not having any personal experience with Christianity or basis for you opinions against it (besides the media), you're
Red Stateler wrote:
apaprently without any first-hand experience.
Wrong. I just haven't chosen to discuss my personal religious experiences with you yet.
Red Stateler wrote:
You're passing judgement on Christianity based on media reports of Islam. That's just lame.
No, I'm grouping Christianity and Islam (along with Judaism and others) into one group called "organized religion".
Red Stateler wrote:
If you pass judgment on all organized religions based on one, then there is obviously a problem since each particular religion is a subset of organized religion and its properties therefore do not necessarily apply to the whole.
I pass judgment of the whole based on the collective actions of the individual religions. Not unlike you passing judgment on atheists as a group based on the actions of the ACLU.
Red Stateler wrote:
Not having any personal experience with Christianity or basis for you opinions against it (besides the media)
Just because I haven't told you about my personal experience with Christianity doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Give it a rest already.
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Give me a break. I'm telling you right now. When you die there is 0% chance that the after life (if there is one) is as described in the bible. There is flat out no chance that you will be in heaven with Jesus and I will spend eternity rotting in hell. As if I will concisously suffer for Billions of years because I chose to use my brain instead of blindly following a book full of non-sensical contradictions that don't apply to modern life. Much of biblical morality was needed in a society without birth control. The Bible was a great framework for creation of a stable society. But times change, and Christianity is becoming increasingly more irrelevant. I would argue that increasing "social anomie" - Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals - is a major part of our problem. Since our victory in World War II, Americans do lack purpose. No matter how money you make, you're still gonna die, so what's the point? The solution is not to find Jesus, but rather for all of us to use our god given intelligence, imagination and technology to figure out why the hell we are here in the first place. IMHO, the purpose of humanity might just be to figure out the purpose of humanity. Once we figure that out, perhaps we can start living for each other instead of living in a state of purposelessness and these murders / suicides will decrease.
Todd, First, I respect whatever you believe or don't believe when it comes to religion. However, most religions support the Golden Rule of being nice to rest of your humankind. Now, a person can certainly be nice without having religion. For some of us though, religion brings us a comfort to some of those big questions in life. I don't care what religion a person believes as long as: 1. They do not hurt other people 2. They accept the religion as a choice. Some of your statements to those who are relgious are almost mean. This is a topic that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to see the other side. What we really need to do, is RESPECT a person's beliefs. We can try to persuade, but at the end we must accept what the other believes and we should not mock those people. I would personally find it odd if someone prayed to the Cookie Monster (why did someone bring up cookies????) and created a faith around that. But if it made a person happy to believe that, then I'm for it.
______________________ stuff + cats = awesome