This poll is gay
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I voted 3 because I think it can go both ways (no pun intended). I'd wager some are born that way and others become gay through years of escalating perversion. If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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I voted 3 because I think it can go both ways (no pun intended). I'd wager some are born that way and others become gay through years of escalating perversion. If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired?
I *hate* beer, and always have. It causes no end of social problems. Someone has offered to buy me a beer at Rocklahoma, that's pretty much how people say 'I'd like to meet you'. I've said yes, understanding the intention was to meet, over something that is generally accepted to be universally desired. So, I am the 'gay' of the beer drinking situation, I don't fit in with the average. That's as gay as I get, let me add.
Shog9 wrote:
I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made?
Interesting question. My answer would be that while the brain is hard wired, sexually, in the womb, the brain continues to forge paths during childhood more easily than it does in later life, and a music instrument is one thing that especially is easier to take up later, if it was taken up earlier ( languages are another, and they are linked in this regard, I believe ). This has nothing to do with violin per se, any musical training in a child, results in being more easily able to pick up any instrument later. I recently finished a book on which parts of the brain work in what ways, to combine to cause us to enjoy music, and it had a chapter on this.
Shog9 wrote:
I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame?
Not really, at least, not in my view. The book claims that the gay lobby takes the position that we're all gay, if we want to be. This is, in my view, wrong, and just creates more bigotry. Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out. I've also seen people online discussing how their child is gay, and being advised that kicking them out of the house will make them rethink thier 'decision'. In both cases, it seems to me that accepting that homosexuality is a part of the human condition, just like left handedness ( I'm a lefty, as it happens ), then several things become clear: 1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose As a result, I think that a
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Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
How do you know that? Does that come from the experiment du jour? What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years? Or how do you know there aren't multiple causes? But more to the point...Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
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Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired?
I *hate* beer, and always have. It causes no end of social problems. Someone has offered to buy me a beer at Rocklahoma, that's pretty much how people say 'I'd like to meet you'. I've said yes, understanding the intention was to meet, over something that is generally accepted to be universally desired. So, I am the 'gay' of the beer drinking situation, I don't fit in with the average. That's as gay as I get, let me add.
Shog9 wrote:
I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made?
Interesting question. My answer would be that while the brain is hard wired, sexually, in the womb, the brain continues to forge paths during childhood more easily than it does in later life, and a music instrument is one thing that especially is easier to take up later, if it was taken up earlier ( languages are another, and they are linked in this regard, I believe ). This has nothing to do with violin per se, any musical training in a child, results in being more easily able to pick up any instrument later. I recently finished a book on which parts of the brain work in what ways, to combine to cause us to enjoy music, and it had a chapter on this.
Shog9 wrote:
I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame?
Not really, at least, not in my view. The book claims that the gay lobby takes the position that we're all gay, if we want to be. This is, in my view, wrong, and just creates more bigotry. Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out. I've also seen people online discussing how their child is gay, and being advised that kicking them out of the house will make them rethink thier 'decision'. In both cases, it seems to me that accepting that homosexuality is a part of the human condition, just like left handedness ( I'm a lefty, as it happens ), then several things become clear: 1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose As a result, I think that a
Christian Graus wrote:
Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out.
you're really gay or are you always just well dressed? bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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Christian Graus wrote:
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
How do you know that? Does that come from the experiment du jour? What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years? Or how do you know there aren't multiple causes? But more to the point...Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
Red Stateler wrote:
Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
Absolutely. I'm not an advocate of *doing* that, and one problem with the science, is that it's vigorously attacked by those who fear a situation where a parent can take steps to make sure their child is not gay. I doubt this will happen, but the fact that it *could* is not reason to reject the scientific facts on which that conclusion is based.
Red Stateler wrote:
What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years?
This sentence does not make sense, but I presume you mean to ask, how do I know this won't be disproven. I don't. I've read a lot of books, from a lot of authors, and a lot of work has been done in this area, so any understanding that evolves, as all science must, may refine the position that is currently being presented. However, I'd be astounded if the position I am defending was absolutely disproved, there's just too much work that has been done to prove it, even if some other factors are discovered, in time.
Red Stateler wrote:
How do you know that?
I can't know it 100%, unless we experiment on humans. However, the research done into situations that reproduce the sort of things that a theoretical experiment may set out to do ( such as having a pregnant woman dosed in either testosterone or estrogen ), have happened in the past, for other reasons, and research into these women's children supports the hypothesis. As I said, so does research done with animals. There's a body of work, in different areas, which all supports the position. A position of 'society makes you that way', or 'people choose to be that way', is not scientific enough to be testable at all, so that position is defended mostly by ridiculing the research that disproves it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out.
you're really gay or are you always just well dressed? bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
LOL - of all the things I am, well dressed is not one of them.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
Obviously spoken in jest, however, any mother can produce a gay baby, external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I voted 3 because I think it can go both ways (no pun intended). I'd wager some are born that way and others become gay through years of escalating perversion. If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
How common is 'very common' ? Greater than it is in humans ( that is, < 5% ) ? Of course, given that it's essentially caused by errors in brain programming during pregnancy, it's possible that some animals, in high stress or otherwise abnormal environments, would deviate from the norm. I'd be interested in sources, tho.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
A long time ago we had a very long debate on a local mailing list, and we arrived at the conclusion that we all have both sexual orientation and sexual preference. One is hard-wired, and the other is a life choice.
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Obviously spoken in jest, however, any mother can produce a gay baby, external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I
Christian Graus wrote:
...external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
In my experience, I would say of some of the gay people I know that they are only so because they have forsaken the traditional male pursuit of women. They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men. I think they have a mistaken interpretation of homosexuality, but they form part of gay demographics.
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
----
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
----
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
who is to blame
Why is blame needed?
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If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
See title. :mad:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
----
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer.
Why did you have to say *that*? I want one now. *Heads to the refrigerator*
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero
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Red Stateler wrote:
Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
Absolutely. I'm not an advocate of *doing* that, and one problem with the science, is that it's vigorously attacked by those who fear a situation where a parent can take steps to make sure their child is not gay. I doubt this will happen, but the fact that it *could* is not reason to reject the scientific facts on which that conclusion is based.
Red Stateler wrote:
What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years?
This sentence does not make sense, but I presume you mean to ask, how do I know this won't be disproven. I don't. I've read a lot of books, from a lot of authors, and a lot of work has been done in this area, so any understanding that evolves, as all science must, may refine the position that is currently being presented. However, I'd be astounded if the position I am defending was absolutely disproved, there's just too much work that has been done to prove it, even if some other factors are discovered, in time.
Red Stateler wrote:
How do you know that?
I can't know it 100%, unless we experiment on humans. However, the research done into situations that reproduce the sort of things that a theoretical experiment may set out to do ( such as having a pregnant woman dosed in either testosterone or estrogen ), have happened in the past, for other reasons, and research into these women's children supports the hypothesis. As I said, so does research done with animals. There's a body of work, in different areas, which all supports the position. A position of 'society makes you that way', or 'people choose to be that way', is not scientific enough to be testable at all, so that position is defended mostly by ridiculing the research that disproves it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
