This poll is gay
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Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
Obviously spoken in jest, however, any mother can produce a gay baby, external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I voted 3 because I think it can go both ways (no pun intended). I'd wager some are born that way and others become gay through years of escalating perversion. If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
How common is 'very common' ? Greater than it is in humans ( that is, < 5% ) ? Of course, given that it's essentially caused by errors in brain programming during pregnancy, it's possible that some animals, in high stress or otherwise abnormal environments, would deviate from the norm. I'd be interested in sources, tho.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Yeah, I realised someone had voted a 3, and figured that was the reason.
Red Stateler wrote:
If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
A long time ago we had a very long debate on a local mailing list, and we arrived at the conclusion that we all have both sexual orientation and sexual preference. One is hard-wired, and the other is a life choice.
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Obviously spoken in jest, however, any mother can produce a gay baby, external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I
Christian Graus wrote:
...external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
In my experience, I would say of some of the gay people I know that they are only so because they have forsaken the traditional male pursuit of women. They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men. I think they have a mistaken interpretation of homosexuality, but they form part of gay demographics.
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
who is to blame
Why is blame needed?
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If that is true then the obvious solution is to not only burn the homosexuals at the stake, but also their mothers. Then in a few generations there will be no more gay people.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
See title. :mad:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer.
Why did you have to say *that*? I want one now. *Heads to the refrigerator*
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero
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Red Stateler wrote:
Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
Absolutely. I'm not an advocate of *doing* that, and one problem with the science, is that it's vigorously attacked by those who fear a situation where a parent can take steps to make sure their child is not gay. I doubt this will happen, but the fact that it *could* is not reason to reject the scientific facts on which that conclusion is based.
Red Stateler wrote:
What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years?
This sentence does not make sense, but I presume you mean to ask, how do I know this won't be disproven. I don't. I've read a lot of books, from a lot of authors, and a lot of work has been done in this area, so any understanding that evolves, as all science must, may refine the position that is currently being presented. However, I'd be astounded if the position I am defending was absolutely disproved, there's just too much work that has been done to prove it, even if some other factors are discovered, in time.
Red Stateler wrote:
How do you know that?
I can't know it 100%, unless we experiment on humans. However, the research done into situations that reproduce the sort of things that a theoretical experiment may set out to do ( such as having a pregnant woman dosed in either testosterone or estrogen ), have happened in the past, for other reasons, and research into these women's children supports the hypothesis. As I said, so does research done with animals. There's a body of work, in different areas, which all supports the position. A position of 'society makes you that way', or 'people choose to be that way', is not scientific enough to be testable at all, so that position is defended mostly by ridiculing the research that disproves it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'. Far better to argue for liberty and reason than mimic the naturalistic arguments from fascists of all stripes.
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No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
AndyKEnZ wrote:
If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men.
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic. And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I believe that we don't know the full answer and, really, shouldn't care other than from, perhaps, an intellectual perspective. So what if someone is gay? Who the hell cares? I'm more concerned and disturbed by people that commit acts of violence or depravity in the name of their sexuality without the informed adult consent of the partner than law abding, tax paying citizens who are no different to anyone else. The people that are gay are not the issue - it's the morons who make a big deal out of it in the name of some homophobic religious bullshit. Where's the morality in that you hypocrites?
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No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men.
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic. And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic.
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Would you like a list of the ways in which male and female brains differ, and another ( exactly the same ) list of ways that homosexual mens brains differ from heterosexual mens brains ? Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing, or inferior. It *is* inferior, on average, in some ways, but, it is superior, on average, in others. Being female, or having a feminised brain may play to different strengths, but it's hardly an insult.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'. Far better to argue for liberty and reason than mimic the naturalistic arguments from fascists of all stripes.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
bestiality
LOL - I'm sure that lots of bestiality occurs in the animals world...
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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A long time ago we had a very long debate on a local mailing list, and we arrived at the conclusion that we all have both sexual orientation and sexual preference. One is hard-wired, and the other is a life choice.
What would the difference be ? Are you saying some men are naturally hetero, but choose to have sex with men ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Shog9 wrote:
who is to blame
Why is blame needed?
Brady Kelly wrote:
Why is blame needed?
I think Shog was saying that both sides of the discussion end up being about what causes it, in a negative sense. As I said, I don't think that blame is really the point, some people are gay, there has to be a reason, and it's scientifically worthy to try to understand that, without any sort of need for judgement or suggestion that it's something we need to 'correct'.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I believe that we don't know the full answer and, really, shouldn't care other than from, perhaps, an intellectual perspective. So what if someone is gay? Who the hell cares? I'm more concerned and disturbed by people that commit acts of violence or depravity in the name of their sexuality without the informed adult consent of the partner than law abding, tax paying citizens who are no different to anyone else. The people that are gay are not the issue - it's the morons who make a big deal out of it in the name of some homophobic religious bullshit. Where's the morality in that you hypocrites?
digital man wrote:
an intellectual perspective
My interest is entirely in this regard. In fact, my interest was in brain structure, and male/female difference, the gay thing just kind of happens to be covered in the same books.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
