This poll is gay
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I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired? :rolleyes: I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made? Isn't the real question here whether we're allowed to look down on homosexuals as people who made some really lame choices... or if we have to be nice to them, as though they were kids with a stutter or who write left-handed with their arms twisted around the paper... I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame? ;)
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer.
Why did you have to say *that*? I want one now. *Heads to the refrigerator*
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero
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Red Stateler wrote:
Would it be possible to intervene during fetal development in order to cure homosexuality?
Absolutely. I'm not an advocate of *doing* that, and one problem with the science, is that it's vigorously attacked by those who fear a situation where a parent can take steps to make sure their child is not gay. I doubt this will happen, but the fact that it *could* is not reason to reject the scientific facts on which that conclusion is based.
Red Stateler wrote:
What makes you think that it's unlike any other given reason for anything in biological sciences that is inevitably found to be wrong within a few years?
This sentence does not make sense, but I presume you mean to ask, how do I know this won't be disproven. I don't. I've read a lot of books, from a lot of authors, and a lot of work has been done in this area, so any understanding that evolves, as all science must, may refine the position that is currently being presented. However, I'd be astounded if the position I am defending was absolutely disproved, there's just too much work that has been done to prove it, even if some other factors are discovered, in time.
Red Stateler wrote:
How do you know that?
I can't know it 100%, unless we experiment on humans. However, the research done into situations that reproduce the sort of things that a theoretical experiment may set out to do ( such as having a pregnant woman dosed in either testosterone or estrogen ), have happened in the past, for other reasons, and research into these women's children supports the hypothesis. As I said, so does research done with animals. There's a body of work, in different areas, which all supports the position. A position of 'society makes you that way', or 'people choose to be that way', is not scientific enough to be testable at all, so that position is defended mostly by ridiculing the research that disproves it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'. Far better to argue for liberty and reason than mimic the naturalistic arguments from fascists of all stripes.
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No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
AndyKEnZ wrote:
If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men.
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic. And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I believe that we don't know the full answer and, really, shouldn't care other than from, perhaps, an intellectual perspective. So what if someone is gay? Who the hell cares? I'm more concerned and disturbed by people that commit acts of violence or depravity in the name of their sexuality without the informed adult consent of the partner than law abding, tax paying citizens who are no different to anyone else. The people that are gay are not the issue - it's the morons who make a big deal out of it in the name of some homophobic religious bullshit. Where's the morality in that you hypocrites?
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No - the issue is that when the brain is sexed ( being initially female in the womb ), at around three months, massive doses of testosterone cause the brain to rewire to be sexually attracted to females. If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men. Experiments on animals indicate what one would expect, once the brain is wired, rewiring is not possible. It's possible to modify behaviour, through guilt or other social factors, but it's not possible to rewire the brain itself. Where is the source for this coming from?
Christian Graus wrote:
As I said, so does research done with animals.
So do they test whether an animal is gay then? This all sounds very flakey to me. I voted 1
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
If that does not occur, the brain is wired to be attracted to men.
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic. And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic.
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Would you like a list of the ways in which male and female brains differ, and another ( exactly the same ) list of ways that homosexual mens brains differ from heterosexual mens brains ? Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing, or inferior. It *is* inferior, on average, in some ways, but, it is superior, on average, in others. Being female, or having a feminised brain may play to different strengths, but it's hardly an insult.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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A long time ago we had a very long debate on a local mailing list, and we arrived at the conclusion that we all have both sexual orientation and sexual preference. One is hard-wired, and the other is a life choice.
What would the difference be ? Are you saying some men are naturally hetero, but choose to have sex with men ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'. Far better to argue for liberty and reason than mimic the naturalistic arguments from fascists of all stripes.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
bestiality
LOL - I'm sure that lots of bestiality occurs in the animals world...
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Shog9 wrote:
who is to blame
Why is blame needed?
Brady Kelly wrote:
Why is blame needed?
I think Shog was saying that both sides of the discussion end up being about what causes it, in a negative sense. As I said, I don't think that blame is really the point, some people are gay, there has to be a reason, and it's scientifically worthy to try to understand that, without any sort of need for judgement or suggestion that it's something we need to 'correct'.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I believe that we don't know the full answer and, really, shouldn't care other than from, perhaps, an intellectual perspective. So what if someone is gay? Who the hell cares? I'm more concerned and disturbed by people that commit acts of violence or depravity in the name of their sexuality without the informed adult consent of the partner than law abding, tax paying citizens who are no different to anyone else. The people that are gay are not the issue - it's the morons who make a big deal out of it in the name of some homophobic religious bullshit. Where's the morality in that you hypocrites?
digital man wrote:
an intellectual perspective
My interest is entirely in this regard. In fact, my interest was in brain structure, and male/female difference, the gay thing just kind of happens to be covered in the same books.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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What would the difference be ? Are you saying some men are naturally hetero, but choose to have sex with men ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Sort of. I'm saying that some men are probably 'wired' as hetero, but develop a sexual preference for homo, for a variety of reasons.
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
'Why men don't iron'
They don't??!! WTF! I'm taking this up with my wife tonight!
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night or this book you mentioned is based on flakey science. It's not my field but I don't think they can look at brains and identify which one's have homosexual tendencies. What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality, I don't believe that can be true. I think it's surroundings; many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men. Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest. So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past. PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic.
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Would you like a list of the ways in which male and female brains differ, and another ( exactly the same ) list of ways that homosexual mens brains differ from heterosexual mens brains ? Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing, or inferior. It *is* inferior, on average, in some ways, but, it is superior, on average, in others. Being female, or having a feminised brain may play to different strengths, but it's hardly an insult.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist :) For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men. Those who have an exclusively homosexual identity and form long term relationships with other men are a subset of those who like a bit of buggery.
Christian Graus wrote:
Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing
No it doesn't. It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
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See title. :mad:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
I think he was being facetious. I suspect there are some religious undertones there - not unsimilar to the burning of witches of the Christian church...
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
bestiality
LOL - I'm sure that lots of bestiality occurs in the animals world...
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
k, trans-species relationships then :)
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Christian Graus wrote:
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist :) For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men. Those who have an exclusively homosexual identity and form long term relationships with other men are a subset of those who like a bit of buggery.
Christian Graus wrote:
Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing
No it doesn't. It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me. :-)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4% ( who are part of that 7.3% ) actually considering themselves to be gay.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Well, I'm sorry about their feelings, although I wasn' attempting to make that accusation. Either way, whatever social baggage comes with the science, I am mostly interested in the scientific proof on offer ( and, to be frank, I couldn't give a damn why people are gay, I brought it up mostly out of interest, after reading stats on public perceptions, in a book I am reading because it deals mostly with brain differences between the sexes )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night or this book you mentioned is based on flakey science. It's not my field but I don't think they can look at brains and identify which one's have homosexual tendencies. What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality, I don't believe that can be true. I think it's surroundings; many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men. Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest. So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past. PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality
Yes, that is what I said.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night
The books I am reading don't go further back than the 1990's, so, not quite overnight.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
I don't believe that can be true.
Well, your ability to believe something isn't really a factor in my process of deciding what seems credible, sorry. Have you done any reading on the subject, do you have a background in this area, or are you just presenting your gut feeling ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men.
OK, I find that view incredible, because it suggests that you believe if you met the right older guys, you'd be gay. I don't believe that's possible, for a second. On what do you base this assumption ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest.
Yes, as you say, this is an extreme circumstance, and does not speak to choices, as much as drive. The book talks about this, actually, when it covers the arguments of those who claim sexuality as a social construct.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past.
Someone else mentioned bestiality and incest, on this thread. Sexuality is different. To be attracted to men is a normal, human condition, however you look at it. The thing that's different here is that a man has the sexual desires we'd generally associate with a woman. Why is it so amazing to think that this means his brain is partially feminised ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
As per your prison example, if there's no other options, sometimes a usually unpalatable option starts to look good, for some.
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Christian Graus wrote:
'Why men don't iron'
They don't??!! WTF! I'm taking this up with my wife tonight!
Well, I sure as hell don't. I wear crinkled shirts as a protest that she hasn't done it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )