A classless society
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I agree that experience does not always lead to the best answer. I am just thinking that if I needed help, and needed it quickly, who would I trust more off the bat? Probably the expert. If I felt it was too complicated, then maybe look at other answers. It's kind of like politics. If I ask the question, 'how do we solve the problem with immigration?' and I ask this to five people and I have no idea what their background is, why should I believe one person over another that it is the best answer? If I found out one person was a state governor and another a janitor, chances are I am going to believe the governor. The janitor might have a great idea, but based on experience I am going to first look at what the governor has to say.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
leckey wrote:
The janitor might have a great idea, but based on experience I am going to first look at what the governor has to say.
Ah - so you're going to base your answer on what a liar has to say. [Disclaimer]This post in no way indicates a view that politicians have been known to stretch the truth until it cries Uncle and hides in the corner when they walk into the room. Oh okay then, it does.[/Disclaimer]
Please visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/ and do something special today. Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I agree that experience does not always lead to the best answer. I am just thinking that if I needed help, and needed it quickly, who would I trust more off the bat? Probably the expert. If I felt it was too complicated, then maybe look at other answers. It's kind of like politics. If I ask the question, 'how do we solve the problem with immigration?' and I ask this to five people and I have no idea what their background is, why should I believe one person over another that it is the best answer? If I found out one person was a state governor and another a janitor, chances are I am going to believe the governor. The janitor might have a great idea, but based on experience I am going to first look at what the governor has to say.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
leckey wrote:
If I found out one person was a state governor and another a janitor, chances are I am going to believe the governor.
I may not believe the Janitor... but I would trust a politician as far as I can throw their armored mercedes. I have met far too many of them in my life. :) speaking of which... one is supposed to have gotten back to me and hasn't. I haven't exactly gone prodding him for information, but I am curious if they selected someone else to do the software for the new space-port.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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While we're at it, lets remove those pesky nicknames and just be known by numbers - that's truly class free. Of course, I'll be number 1.
Please visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/ and do something special today. Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
I'll be zero.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I suggest that everyone in the Atlanta region be put on a tier higher than the rest of the CPians. We deserve it for sure! :-D
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkSince I am just listening to some ATL music, I don't protest... :)
[My Blog] "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe
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leckey wrote:
The janitor might have a great idea, but based on experience I am going to first look at what the governor has to say.
Ah - so you're going to base your answer on what a liar has to say. [Disclaimer]This post in no way indicates a view that politicians have been known to stretch the truth until it cries Uncle and hides in the corner when they walk into the room. Oh okay then, it does.[/Disclaimer]
Please visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/ and do something special today. Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
it was the first thing that came to mind. Okay, I need to have my car fixed and I ask five people what is wrong with my car. I don't know their backgrounds. Who do you believe? Then you find out one is a certified GM/Ford mechanic and another person is the janitor. Maybe the janitor tinkers with cars on the weekend, but who do you trust first?
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
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I'll be zero.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
it was the first thing that came to mind. Okay, I need to have my car fixed and I ask five people what is wrong with my car. I don't know their backgrounds. Who do you believe? Then you find out one is a certified GM/Ford mechanic and another person is the janitor. Maybe the janitor tinkers with cars on the weekend, but who do you trust first?
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
leckey wrote:
Then you find out one is a certified GM/Ford mechanic and another person is the janitor. Maybe the janitor tinkers with cars on the weekend, but who do you trust first?
Getting better... though I don't have a bias against ford's others might. ;) (hint: you can't win this one, but we do understand, honest. :) )
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Many societies experience revolution from time to time, and a frequent flier in coffee house conversations where the really cool dissidents hang out is the concept of a classless society. The reasoning goes that if you remove all trappings of status, then all people are equal, and Equality == Good. It's a nice, idealistic little thought, and the people who run the popular espresso hangouts are all for it. Well, at least for the discussion of it, by paying customers. We'll talk about capitalism another day. Folks are pretty bent out of shape lately about the behavior of drive by 1 voters, people who contribute gibberish articles or posts to bump their message count, and many other forms of abuse that have the same goal at heart: the increase of status. Having been a revolutionary in a previous lifetime (I still have the snazzy looking beret), it appears to me that you're all trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Eliminate status, and you'll remove the motivations of those who abuse or at least occasionally spank the system. After all, the journey is the reward, so who needs all those evil trappings of status forced upon us by The Establishment? Rise up, citizens, and revolt! Well, those of you who aren't revolting enough already, that is. Remove the voting system, the membership level indicators and all other outward appearances that prevent us from being one big classless society. And as someone with less class than most of you, I'll be happy to go first. You can remove my little gold medal and simply call me Fido. As long as the table scraps are worthwhile, I'll stick around.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Here here or there there? I think the points are like on "Whose Line is it Anyway", they just don't mean anything. All the unpsetedness (is that a word?) and for what? There will always be a pecking order thats the nature of us humans. If we revolted and became classless soon the leaders among us would lead, the bankers would bank and the a&&holes would still be a**holes. There will always be the 5% that make things difficult for the rest of us..(Assuming I'm not in that 5%...other than that thing with the cheese-wiz I'm clean). Had to get my 2 cents worth in! Thanks I'm done ranting Mike
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
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I'll be the square root of -1.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
That would make you î... Î would find that confusing, since that's who Î am.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Many societies experience revolution from time to time, and a frequent flier in coffee house conversations where the really cool dissidents hang out is the concept of a classless society. The reasoning goes that if you remove all trappings of status, then all people are equal, and Equality == Good. It's a nice, idealistic little thought, and the people who run the popular espresso hangouts are all for it. Well, at least for the discussion of it, by paying customers. We'll talk about capitalism another day. Folks are pretty bent out of shape lately about the behavior of drive by 1 voters, people who contribute gibberish articles or posts to bump their message count, and many other forms of abuse that have the same goal at heart: the increase of status. Having been a revolutionary in a previous lifetime (I still have the snazzy looking beret), it appears to me that you're all trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Eliminate status, and you'll remove the motivations of those who abuse or at least occasionally spank the system. After all, the journey is the reward, so who needs all those evil trappings of status forced upon us by The Establishment? Rise up, citizens, and revolt! Well, those of you who aren't revolting enough already, that is. Remove the voting system, the membership level indicators and all other outward appearances that prevent us from being one big classless society. And as someone with less class than most of you, I'll be happy to go first. You can remove my little gold medal and simply call me Fido. As long as the table scraps are worthwhile, I'll stick around.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
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While we're at it, lets remove those pesky nicknames and just be known by numbers - that's truly class free. Of course, I'll be number 1.
Please visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/ and do something special today. Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
I've got a t-shirt that has pi to 1,000 digits. I just be 3.14159265........ :rolleyes:
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Many societies experience revolution from time to time, and a frequent flier in coffee house conversations where the really cool dissidents hang out is the concept of a classless society. The reasoning goes that if you remove all trappings of status, then all people are equal, and Equality == Good. It's a nice, idealistic little thought, and the people who run the popular espresso hangouts are all for it. Well, at least for the discussion of it, by paying customers. We'll talk about capitalism another day. Folks are pretty bent out of shape lately about the behavior of drive by 1 voters, people who contribute gibberish articles or posts to bump their message count, and many other forms of abuse that have the same goal at heart: the increase of status. Having been a revolutionary in a previous lifetime (I still have the snazzy looking beret), it appears to me that you're all trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Eliminate status, and you'll remove the motivations of those who abuse or at least occasionally spank the system. After all, the journey is the reward, so who needs all those evil trappings of status forced upon us by The Establishment? Rise up, citizens, and revolt! Well, those of you who aren't revolting enough already, that is. Remove the voting system, the membership level indicators and all other outward appearances that prevent us from being one big classless society. And as someone with less class than most of you, I'll be happy to go first. You can remove my little gold medal and simply call me Fido. As long as the table scraps are worthwhile, I'll stick around.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
Just for the record I've been against the message voting system for that very reason since it came into existance. The other status indicators I don't have any clue about, I don't know what the difference between different levels are, didn't even know they existed until people were chirping about it earlier today. But I agree, what's the point? People here long enough know who's who and what's what.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Many societies experience revolution from time to time, and a frequent flier in coffee house conversations where the really cool dissidents hang out is the concept of a classless society. The reasoning goes that if you remove all trappings of status, then all people are equal, and Equality == Good. It's a nice, idealistic little thought, and the people who run the popular espresso hangouts are all for it. Well, at least for the discussion of it, by paying customers. We'll talk about capitalism another day. Folks are pretty bent out of shape lately about the behavior of drive by 1 voters, people who contribute gibberish articles or posts to bump their message count, and many other forms of abuse that have the same goal at heart: the increase of status. Having been a revolutionary in a previous lifetime (I still have the snazzy looking beret), it appears to me that you're all trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. Eliminate status, and you'll remove the motivations of those who abuse or at least occasionally spank the system. After all, the journey is the reward, so who needs all those evil trappings of status forced upon us by The Establishment? Rise up, citizens, and revolt! Well, those of you who aren't revolting enough already, that is. Remove the voting system, the membership level indicators and all other outward appearances that prevent us from being one big classless society. And as someone with less class than most of you, I'll be happy to go first. You can remove my little gold medal and simply call me Fido. As long as the table scraps are worthwhile, I'll stick around.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
course it all falls over at Equality == Good because Equality != Good Bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
and all other outward appearances that prevent us from being one big classless society.
I for one do not want to be in the same classless class as those who shall not be named. The point of a class system is to recognize that there are people different from others. What you suggest is a homogenous melting pot that denies the inequality inherent in all human beings and that, for better or worse, makes life interesting. The problem is not the class system, but the value people assign to different classes. I think it's important to recognize differences between people and to classify those differences, but we naturally tend to place value on those classes that we create around us. So in the end, a classless society denies our differences as a group and a classfull society creates a twisted value system that results in absurd behavior (manifested in its extreme by war). Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
The problem is not the class system, but the value people assign to different classes.
Was this post supposed to be satirical and people didn't get it? What is a class system *other* than the value people assign the different classes? You say that the point of a class system is to recognize that people are different from others. I disagree; the point of a class system is to recognize that some people are (supposedly) *better* than others. Simply by removing CP's classification system doesn't mean that we will suddenly become indistinguishable from one another. The differences between people won't suddenly vanish, it's just a question of how they will be recognized. Some people will still be recognized as high-value contributors and others less so, but it will be done on merit and community opinion rather than via some automated system that can be gamed. Honestly, how lame is it to think that a special status on an internet forum (especially one based on something as simplistic as your post count or votes) has any kind of value whatsoever. I'll take the respect of my peers, even if it's completely unpublicized and anonymous, over that any day.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
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I'll be the square root of -1.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
The only valid values are 0 and 1.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Marc Clifton wrote:
The problem is not the class system, but the value people assign to different classes.
Was this post supposed to be satirical and people didn't get it? What is a class system *other* than the value people assign the different classes? You say that the point of a class system is to recognize that people are different from others. I disagree; the point of a class system is to recognize that some people are (supposedly) *better* than others. Simply by removing CP's classification system doesn't mean that we will suddenly become indistinguishable from one another. The differences between people won't suddenly vanish, it's just a question of how they will be recognized. Some people will still be recognized as high-value contributors and others less so, but it will be done on merit and community opinion rather than via some automated system that can be gamed. Honestly, how lame is it to think that a special status on an internet forum (especially one based on something as simplistic as your post count or votes) has any kind of value whatsoever. I'll take the respect of my peers, even if it's completely unpublicized and anonymous, over that any day.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
You say that the point of a class system is to recognize that people are different from others. I disagree; the point of a class system is to recognize that some people are (supposedly) *better* than others.
Differences are facts. "better" or "worse" are values assigned to those differences.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
The differences between people won't suddenly vanish, it's just a question of how they will be recognized.
The problem with an Internet society is that it's much more difficult to recognize the differences in people because they're more anonymous, which makes classification of people more important.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Some people will still be recognized as high-value contributors and others less so
How so? If all class distinctions are removed, then there's no way for a person, without hanging out at CP every day for a few months, to determine who is a high-value contributor. All that does is shove the classification-value system onto each person rather than having some "rules" for automatically creating a value-class system.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
but it will be done on merit and community opinion rather than via some automated system that can be gamed.
See what I said above.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Honestly, how lame is it to think that a special status on an internet forum (especially one based on something as simplistic as your post count or votes) has any kind of value whatsoever.
Well, most systems that assign status are lame. But I also think that we shouldn't just throw them out.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
I'll take the respect of my peers, even if it's completely unpublicized and anonymous, over that any day.
And therefore, you can completely ignore the classification system that CP uses! So, isn't that the best of both worlds? Marc
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
You say that the point of a class system is to recognize that people are different from others. I disagree; the point of a class system is to recognize that some people are (supposedly) *better* than others.
Differences are facts. "better" or "worse" are values assigned to those differences.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
The differences between people won't suddenly vanish, it's just a question of how they will be recognized.
The problem with an Internet society is that it's much more difficult to recognize the differences in people because they're more anonymous, which makes classification of people more important.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Some people will still be recognized as high-value contributors and others less so
How so? If all class distinctions are removed, then there's no way for a person, without hanging out at CP every day for a few months, to determine who is a high-value contributor. All that does is shove the classification-value system onto each person rather than having some "rules" for automatically creating a value-class system.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
but it will be done on merit and community opinion rather than via some automated system that can be gamed.
See what I said above.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Honestly, how lame is it to think that a special status on an internet forum (especially one based on something as simplistic as your post count or votes) has any kind of value whatsoever.
Well, most systems that assign status are lame. But I also think that we shouldn't just throw them out.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
I'll take the respect of my peers, even if it's completely unpublicized and anonymous, over that any day.
And therefore, you can completely ignore the classification system that CP uses! So, isn't that the best of both worlds? Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Differences are facts. "better" or "worse" are values assigned to those differences.
I don't quite see what your point is. The only reason we have class systems is so that one set of people can call themselves better than others :rolleyes: Sure, people are different from each other and if you want to group them according to those differences, I guess that'd be a *classification* system. But a *class* system is based purely on the perceived value of each class. It's inherently a value-based system.
Marc Clifton wrote:
The problem with an Internet society is that it's much more difficult to recognize the differences in people because they're more anonymous, which makes classification of people more important.
Completely disagree :-) The importance is no different to that in real life. Yes, it's harder, so that means you need to be more perceptive, have a different set of tools for assessing people and it takes longer. But the only classification of people that has any value to me is the one that I make myself, based on my opinion of them, which will be formed by my observing their behaviour over a period of time. I will certainly take into account the thoughts of other people who's opinions I respect and value but the idea that I would give a rat's ass about something as trivial as post count or votes is just silly.
Marc Clifton wrote:
If all class distinctions are removed, then there's no way for a person, without hanging out at CP every day for a few months, to determine who is a high-value contributor. All that does is shove the classification-value system onto each person rather than having some "rules" for automatically creating a value-class system.
Bingo! This is *exactly* the point I'm making. Judging value is hard. It can't be done off-the-cuff or via an automated system, it can't be distilled down into a single number or rank. It's exactly the same problem we see in schools: it's really difficult to know whether a student knows the material, is intelligent, so we put in place all this crap to enable us to make quick decisions about people. We reduce years of work down into a single grade, or even worse, a binary HAS/DOES NOT HAVE degree :doh: If you were away from CP for a few months and saw a bunch of new people when you came back, would you form opinions of them based on their post content, th
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Differences are facts. "better" or "worse" are values assigned to those differences.
I don't quite see what your point is. The only reason we have class systems is so that one set of people can call themselves better than others :rolleyes: Sure, people are different from each other and if you want to group them according to those differences, I guess that'd be a *classification* system. But a *class* system is based purely on the perceived value of each class. It's inherently a value-based system.
Marc Clifton wrote:
The problem with an Internet society is that it's much more difficult to recognize the differences in people because they're more anonymous, which makes classification of people more important.
Completely disagree :-) The importance is no different to that in real life. Yes, it's harder, so that means you need to be more perceptive, have a different set of tools for assessing people and it takes longer. But the only classification of people that has any value to me is the one that I make myself, based on my opinion of them, which will be formed by my observing their behaviour over a period of time. I will certainly take into account the thoughts of other people who's opinions I respect and value but the idea that I would give a rat's ass about something as trivial as post count or votes is just silly.
Marc Clifton wrote:
If all class distinctions are removed, then there's no way for a person, without hanging out at CP every day for a few months, to determine who is a high-value contributor. All that does is shove the classification-value system onto each person rather than having some "rules" for automatically creating a value-class system.
Bingo! This is *exactly* the point I'm making. Judging value is hard. It can't be done off-the-cuff or via an automated system, it can't be distilled down into a single number or rank. It's exactly the same problem we see in schools: it's really difficult to know whether a student knows the material, is intelligent, so we put in place all this crap to enable us to make quick decisions about people. We reduce years of work down into a single grade, or even worse, a binary HAS/DOES NOT HAVE degree :doh: If you were away from CP for a few months and saw a bunch of new people when you came back, would you form opinions of them based on their post content, th
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Bingo! This is *exactly* the point I'm making. Judging value is hard.
Agreed, and I figured that was your point. Normally I would agree completely, and I actually find it odd that I'm arguing in favor of an automated classification system when I basically hate anything that dehumanizes the human being. But I remember when I first came to Code Project and it was immediately obvious that there were cool people and some less cool people. I checked out the who's who and sorted by article count, discovered the article rating system, and perused the high rated articles to start getting ideas of what a good article is for the people here. I found the system valuable, and I found it personally challenging, as I wanted to get that platinum membership while at the same time producing something of quality. Marc
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
Bingo! This is *exactly* the point I'm making. Judging value is hard.
Agreed, and I figured that was your point. Normally I would agree completely, and I actually find it odd that I'm arguing in favor of an automated classification system when I basically hate anything that dehumanizes the human being. But I remember when I first came to Code Project and it was immediately obvious that there were cool people and some less cool people. I checked out the who's who and sorted by article count, discovered the article rating system, and perused the high rated articles to start getting ideas of what a good article is for the people here. I found the system valuable, and I found it personally challenging, as I wanted to get that platinum membership while at the same time producing something of quality. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I actually find it odd that I'm arguing in favor of an automated classification system
:-D Actually, so did I :rolleyes:
Marc Clifton wrote:
perused the high rated articles to start getting ideas of what a good article is for the people here.
This is perhaps a little different (although not much). A high rating for an article means that the article's probably a bit better than average but since there's nothing stopping people from creating accounts and voting for their own articles, you can only put so much weight on it. But I find it useful as a starting point when I'm faced with a large number of articles to sift through. You can usually tell pretty quickly once you start reading whether it's any good or not :-)
Marc Clifton wrote:
I wanted to get that platinum membership
You hit the nail on the head: people care about rankings and titles and awards. I'm probably unusual in that I (generally) don't.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
