Job Interviews...
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You may be great, but there is no way to know how good you are for the company until you find out what they do and what they need. That's why you should wait until the end, otherwise you may come off looking like a prima donna.
What about the employer asking you what you are currently on and just better that with 15% is that a good deal ? And if they ask Are you obliged to tell them. I think thats how they like doing it nowadays or Maybe its only in my region SA . Even Agencies negotiate on your behalf using the same formula sometimes X| How do you measure if you getting ripped off Based on experience and qualifications :^)
Java is life -- Myself
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John posted a few threads down about the math question he was asked at a recent interview. There are already so many different hoops they expect people to jump through in an interview that the games just seem to go on and on.. Now, you flip the issue, what about information you get to ask them? Most people will tell you not to talk about money up front, but why should you waste your time interviewing for a position that will not pay even close to your needs? I personally would find someone asking about pay at the very beginning more repsonsible since they clearly do not want to waste time. But most will say that is a taboo.. I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line". Is there something wrong with knowing you are good and your skill and that they are "lucky" to have your working for them. Not saying you should have an ego bigger than you are, but that you are a business person looking to make a business deal with another business, not begging and hoping they bless you with the opportunity to build "their" business. Maybe I am just old and set in my ways, but what do all of you think?
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
I once got a job with compaq (now HP) and I had to have IQ Test (which I did too well at), 6 interviews no less and a medical. This was just to build computers as well. I'm sure a tech job would have been easier to get.
Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]
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John posted a few threads down about the math question he was asked at a recent interview. There are already so many different hoops they expect people to jump through in an interview that the games just seem to go on and on.. Now, you flip the issue, what about information you get to ask them? Most people will tell you not to talk about money up front, but why should you waste your time interviewing for a position that will not pay even close to your needs? I personally would find someone asking about pay at the very beginning more repsonsible since they clearly do not want to waste time. But most will say that is a taboo.. I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line". Is there something wrong with knowing you are good and your skill and that they are "lucky" to have your working for them. Not saying you should have an ego bigger than you are, but that you are a business person looking to make a business deal with another business, not begging and hoping they bless you with the opportunity to build "their" business. Maybe I am just old and set in my ways, but what do all of you think?
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
Rocky Moore wrote:
I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line".
In my case, I am hoping someone hires me. In my current job, I have had almost no experience with the .Net framework. It's not because of my innate dislike of .Net, but rather because my current job doesn't require me to use it (this is primarily the reason I'm leaving my current job). I've found that unless you've got tangible results to demonstrate by "playing with xyz technology at home", most interviewers aren't interested in what you do on your own time. I'm hoping that at least one company sees that I can teach myself anything (I have a long track record of doing so) I need to learn in order to do the job, and I can even demonstrate that I can do work that I personally don't care for. I didn't mind getting the interview questions that I got because they were to judge knowledge as much as they were to observe thought processes. A programmer has to be mentally agile. Not only does he have to be able to write the code, but he also has to become a subject matter expert. In the last 27 years, I've learned how to be an estate planner, an insurance agent, a lawyer, a fighter pilot, and a medical clinician.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Christian Graus wrote:
I would tend to talk about money towards the end, they won't know what you are worth before then anyhow.
Actually, I was thinking more about asking what they expect to payout for the position (a range is fine) but a ballpark to know if you should even bother with the interview. They put out a list of what they expect, job seeks maybe should have the same ability. When you fill out a typical application for jobs, they usually have salary desired, it would be nice if they posted a salary range they expected. Of course, you can get your feelings hurt if you do not get their top pay, but at least you would know where you stand from the start. That reminds me of yet another issue with being an employee. At one place I worked a number of years ago, you could get fired for letting others know what your salary is. That is a good deal for the company as they pay you just what they can get by with, but I think it should be eliminated.
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
Rocky Moore wrote:
it would be nice if they posted a salary range they expected
I always know the salary range ahead of time. That way, I don't have to even schedule an interview (thus wasting their time) just to walk in, ask them immediately what the salary range is, and then walk out (if it's too low). Most job postings on Craigs List and Monster have the salary ranges posted with the job listing.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Rocky Moore wrote:
I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line".
In my case, I am hoping someone hires me. In my current job, I have had almost no experience with the .Net framework. It's not because of my innate dislike of .Net, but rather because my current job doesn't require me to use it (this is primarily the reason I'm leaving my current job). I've found that unless you've got tangible results to demonstrate by "playing with xyz technology at home", most interviewers aren't interested in what you do on your own time. I'm hoping that at least one company sees that I can teach myself anything (I have a long track record of doing so) I need to learn in order to do the job, and I can even demonstrate that I can do work that I personally don't care for. I didn't mind getting the interview questions that I got because they were to judge knowledge as much as they were to observe thought processes. A programmer has to be mentally agile. Not only does he have to be able to write the code, but he also has to become a subject matter expert. In the last 27 years, I've learned how to be an estate planner, an insurance agent, a lawyer, a fighter pilot, and a medical clinician.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I can even demonstrate that I can do work that I personally don't care for.
With the development world out there so hot right now, why would you want to work on things you do not care about? I think most of us have built software that was flat out boring or we were locked into a legacy technology bubble, but there appear to be many opportunities out there. If you do not like .NET why would you want to develop for it?
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
a fighter pilot
Now there is one I would like to be able to do :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
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Rocky Moore wrote:
I personally would find someone asking about pay at the very beginning more repsonsible since they clearly do not want to waste time. But most will say that is a taboo..
Personally, I won't even attend an interview unless I know what the pay is up front.
Rocky Moore wrote:
Now, you flip the issue, what about information you get to ask them?
Of course, I am not an employee, but rather a full time contractor. So, my motivation is not the same as most people. Besides the pay, I also try to get as much information as I can about the project(s) and team(s) I'd be working with.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Personally, I won't even attend an interview unless I know what the pay is up front.
There is a downside to that. I interview for positions that are in the "ballpark". AFTER the company wants to make me an offer, the NEGOTIATIONS begin about salary/rate. The key to this strategy is to "wow" them to make them feel like they need you on their team. At that point, the negotiation pendulum has swung to your side. But, you have to be perfectly willing to walk away if they come up with anything lower than your bottom line.
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I would tend to talk about money towards the end, they won't know what you are worth before then anyhow.
Rocky Moore wrote:
I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line".
Yeah, I kind of agree. I always maintain tho, I know I am good at what I do, but I don't know who else they interviewed, so I can't ever say that I was the best candidate, or that I should expect to get hired.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I wonder if anyone would adjust thier rate if they knew the employer was an H1B sponser? Some job ad services post if the employer is an H1B sponser.
MrPlankton
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John posted a few threads down about the math question he was asked at a recent interview. There are already so many different hoops they expect people to jump through in an interview that the games just seem to go on and on.. Now, you flip the issue, what about information you get to ask them? Most people will tell you not to talk about money up front, but why should you waste your time interviewing for a position that will not pay even close to your needs? I personally would find someone asking about pay at the very beginning more repsonsible since they clearly do not want to waste time. But most will say that is a taboo.. I find it funny that developers go to the job market more of a "hope" you get hired than a "I have this skill that I know could help your company's bottom line". Is there something wrong with knowing you are good and your skill and that they are "lucky" to have your working for them. Not saying you should have an ego bigger than you are, but that you are a business person looking to make a business deal with another business, not begging and hoping they bless you with the opportunity to build "their" business. Maybe I am just old and set in my ways, but what do all of you think?
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
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What about the employer asking you what you are currently on and just better that with 15% is that a good deal ? And if they ask Are you obliged to tell them. I think thats how they like doing it nowadays or Maybe its only in my region SA . Even Agencies negotiate on your behalf using the same formula sometimes X| How do you measure if you getting ripped off Based on experience and qualifications :^)
Java is life -- Myself
I was taught a few techniques from recruiters for negotiating a salary, and they have never failed me. 1) The first person to name a price loses in the negotiation process. 2) There are more things to compensation than just salary. Sure you may be able to get a 15% increase by going to the new company, but say, their range is as high as 30% higher than your current salary, and your skill set and qualifications match you perfectly with what they are looking for. Wouldn't you rather have the 30%? The way to do this, is when they ask you how much you are looking for, you answer their question with a question. Say, "Before I can answer that, I would like a little more information from you. There are more parts to compensation than salary". You ask how much of a fit they feel that you are for the position. You ask about the other things you are interested in, like flexible schedule, work environment etc. Finally you say you assume they have a range of what they are willing to pay this position. You ask what that range is, even if they don't tell you, you can say, well you said I matched all of your criteria and you think I would be a great fit, so I think close to the top number in your range would be fair. I have done this a few times since I learned it, and it gets easier and easier each time. And it has worked for me and most other people that I have suggested it to. The key is justifying your worth. And if the company doesn't want to pay a high salary, maybe you can negotiate other things that don't cost them money, but would be of value to you.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I can even demonstrate that I can do work that I personally don't care for.
With the development world out there so hot right now, why would you want to work on things you do not care about? I think most of us have built software that was flat out boring or we were locked into a legacy technology bubble, but there appear to be many opportunities out there. If you do not like .NET why would you want to develop for it?
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
a fighter pilot
Now there is one I would like to be able to do :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: The SIlverlight Directory finally launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: You got to see this - Seadragon and Photosynth!
Rocky Moore wrote:
With the development world out there so hot right now, why would you want to work on things you do not care about?
To pay for a roof over your head, to provide (or help provide in two income households) for your family. In other words, survival. In smaller markets, you often have to take what you can get because of limited opportunities. Of course, another option in that kind of situation is to relocate. Of course, that is a decision where the factors can vary widely from individual to individual.
Andrew C. Eisenberg Nashville, TN, USA (a.k.a. Music City USA) (Yes Virginia, there are rock and roll stations in Nashville! :laugh:)
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Rocky Moore wrote:
With the development world out there so hot right now, why would you want to work on things you do not care about?
To pay for a roof over your head, to provide (or help provide in two income households) for your family. In other words, survival. In smaller markets, you often have to take what you can get because of limited opportunities. Of course, another option in that kind of situation is to relocate. Of course, that is a decision where the factors can vary widely from individual to individual.
Andrew C. Eisenberg Nashville, TN, USA (a.k.a. Music City USA) (Yes Virginia, there are rock and roll stations in Nashville! :laugh:)
Andrew Eisenberg wrote:
Of course, another option in that kind of situation is to relocate.
The only bad part about the relocation is the funds it takes! I just relocated to SW Florida and I can tell you that had the company I currently work for NOT paid my relo, I wouldn't be here. Relocation is UNBELIEVABLY expensive!!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Why are we still calling it Common Sense when it's just not that common?
