Why do some people prefer C over C++?

El Corazon

Code2326 wrote:

I was told C could do more than C++

Neither can do more than the other. Any class can be written in C, but the difference is ease of organization and definition of structure. Just as patterns define common operations, classes provided the first standard for organization of programming methodology for C, thus C plus plus, being C plus more. Given that there was no standard for organizational structure libraries were often disjointed, having no coherent "glue" to hold them together. C++ is not inherently slower, but some operations are inherently slower, so knowledge is best. For instance, never using a virtual method for a commonly called routine in a program that needs speed. Minimizing nesting of inheritance, as well as classes with classes as members. Nesting is an important part of organizational structure, but just as writing API functions that call smaller API functions which called smaller API functions, which called smaller API functions, you can easily go to far. Your brain is the best optimization/organization tool, used correctly with C/C++ both are fast. C++ has then the organizational coherence of a standard method and storage containers. No more writing a linked list, though I miss a skip-list.... No more organization of routines wth functon pointers, classes provdide an easier to maintain standard. if you write a class using all virtual functions and deep inheritance and circular inheritance you can prove that C++ is slower... but since this is poor practices in the first place, all you are doing is proving why it s a poor practice, nothing about the language itself. You can just as easily build an API with nested calls, deep recursion, and no more than 2 lines of code in every function, the resulting stack calls will eat all your performance. Everything has a cost, knowing that cost is the first step to programming for performance. Balancing that performance cost and development/organization cost is something that comes with experience. We have constant arguments here, that organizaton should outweigh performance in all cases. I disagree, I believe they are both important. C++ is neither a miracle, nor a curse, it is a technological advancement of the language of C for multiple reasons. If you know and understand those reasons you have an extra tool in your brain for application of C++ structures.

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about t

El Corazon

leckey wrote:

I've noticed that whichever one learns first, seems to be the preference.

Although that is the majority of human nature, it still is not always true. :) Basic->Fortran->Pascal->(first attempt at C)->S-Basic->Cobol->RPG-II->Modula->LISP->Prolog->Forth->C->Assembly->Ada->C*->C++->C# I am sure I left out a few in there, but I still prefer C++.

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

Chris Austin

Christian Graus wrote:

Only if C++ is taught *wrong* is it easier to learn C.

I would agree with you here. I think a lot of people approach C++ as being "just" C with OOP starting out.

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Nirosh

They are afraid of/ don't like the change. Just like those people who use the same pen continuously for quite a long time, and even after it is over, still want to keep the old one aside with the new one.

L.W.C. Nirosh. Colombo, Sri Lanka.

James Brown

I actually like C++ quite a lot, sometimes very nice code can be written in it and it lends itself very well to many types of program. It is just the 'gotcha's that put me off, and some of the language features that can make code utterly unreadable, templates being the main offender. Also the many implicit behaviours and side-effects that can be introduced by the most innocent of statement.

http://www.catch22.net

Josh Smith

Because they have never tried C#. ;P :josh puts on fireproof body suit:

:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)

James Brown

not true, C will always be easier to learn because it is such a simple language. C++ is a huge language, far more powerful and expressive than C and subsequently takes alot more time to learn the nuances of the language. OO vs non-OO and the different approaches required for each never formed a part in my argument.

http://www.catch22.net

Gary R Wheeler

C is much simpler to learn. No object-oriented stuff, operator overloading, exceptions, etc. C++ offers vastly better facilities for software engineering a project. Namespaces, classes, etc. If you've ever maintained a 250,000 line code base in C (which I have), you'll understand. C and C++ are equally 'close' to the hardware. There are certain programming idioms that are more succinctly expressed in C++ than in C. There is no inherent performance disadvantage to C++ for many applications. Most things cited for this bit of FUD (exception handling, for example) are controllable with compiler options. If you don't use that feature, turn it off and its effect on performance is eliminated. Truth be told, I would not be surprised to find some C++ programs that are significantly faster than the corresponding C code, simply due to the fact that the compiler implements certain programming techniques in machine code in C++ that you would have to construct 'by hand' in C. I spent six years doing pure C development. I've spent the last ten years doing C++ work. Given a choice, I will always choose C++ over C.

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Marc Clifton

Because they're stupid. Marc

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Josh Smith

Marc Clifton wrote:

Because they're stupid.

:laugh: Wow, I didn't see that one coming!

:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)

Christian Graus

Chris Austin wrote:

I think a lot of people approach C++ as being "just" C with OOP starting out.

Yeah, a lot of professors are old C programmers, who teach C with classes. That just makes it hard.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

Christian Graus

But, you can teach C++ by starting with the part that is C. That's totally the wrong way to teach it, and teaching it right makes C++ easier than C, IMO. Teaching C++ doesn't have to mean teaching the whole language, just enough to get people started. Then they can move on to templates, STL containers, iostreams, etc, once they have a firm grounding. C is easier because it's simpler, only if you assume that 'learn' means 'know every facet of the language'. As your comment above shows, many people use C++ and never learn how templates work, for example.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

martin_hughes

I really hate arguments about languages - it's all so thoroughly pointless as no one ever wins, and the arguments go on. And on. And on. If any of it really mattered, we'd all still be writing in machine code, or better yet we'd still be calculating stuff on an abacus. C or C++? Who cares? Use whatever you want to use (even VB6 if the feel takes you!), invent your own language if you like - just remember: your end user won't care one jot what language your programs are written in, all they want to know is a)does it do what they want, and b)how long it took you to deliver them.

"It was the day before today.... I remember it like it was yesterday." -Moleman

El Corazon

James Brown wrote:

not true, C will always be easier to learn because it is such a simple language

not true, because eventually you must follow on with storage mechanisms, pointers, pointers to functions, lists, trees, etc. Now you have added more complexity to C to keep up with the capability of C++, and have done it in inconsistant methodologies such that one C programmer has difficult understanding what another did -- and no consistency of performance, one list implimentation is not the same as another. Of course you could say, as long as no one writes anything complex, C is always the winner. Well :doh: I can write a hello world program in ASM more compact too, that doesn't mean it is the right tool for all jobs.

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

Gary R Wheeler

Go right ahead, make me feel like a pompous wind-bag :laugh:. Your answer is far more to the point.

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El Corazon

Gary R. Wheeler wrote:

Go right ahead, make me feel like a pompous wind-bag

my posts were twice the size of yours... if he makes you a pompous wind-bag, what extreme does that make me????

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

cp9876

Because they don't want to use object oriented design. My experience in complex projects is that C++ used well results in great code, as fast as C, developed in less time and is far easier to maintain. C++ is also much more fun than C - even when producing great code. Having to develop everything in C is a nightmare scenario! However, developing the skills to use C++ well takes much longer than learning to use C, and I have seen some people who I believe will never make good OO designers. I have seen people with poor C++ skills produce code that is much more obscure than C, is much slower and almost impossible to maintain. It would have been almost impossible to write programs that badly in C, simply because C++ gave them more features to misuse. C++ is a fantastic tool in the hands of a skilled craftsman.

Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."

El Corazon

Josh Smith wrote:

Because they have never tried C#. :josh puts on fireproof body suit:

you should have reversed the order there.... ;P If someone had been faster, they could have got you good.... ;P

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

James Brown

sorry sunshine, but no matter what way you look at things, C is a simpler language and is therefore easier to learn. libraries/data structures are irrelevant and never formed a part of my argument.

http://www.catch22.net

El Corazon

Christian Graus wrote:

"I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax"

I just read this.... :doh::doh::omg: That's like seeing... "I am starting a project in 3D graphics for a game... what is 3D graphics?" :doh:

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)