Is CP making people dumber?
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
The assholes who are hiring third-world programming staffs are.
It was the same third world programming staff who contribute a lot to software running in "First-world" countries, if the number of mainstream software that get written out here are any indication of it. Outsourcing is deemed a successful business practice both in monetary terms and skills available now.
SG
SimulationofSai wrote:
It was the same third world programming staff who contribute a lot to software running in "First-world" countries, if the number of mainstream software that get written out here are any indication of it. Outsourcing is deemed a successful business practice both in monetary terms and skills available now.
Rubbish. It's a social experiment that everyone knows is doomed and is simply waiting for all companies in a competitive environment to see the light (so that the currently enlightened are not put at a disadvantage). I agree "some" offshoring may work, but I've proven in our company that offshoring was the WRONG thing for us to do!
Regards, Ray
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SimulationofSai wrote:
Outsourcing is deemed a successful business practice both in monetary terms and skills available now.
I've not heard one person say that outsourcing was successful for their company, and my contacts range from technical people to managers to CEO's/CFO's. Marc
I agree. My company's CTO told me that outsourcing is a hasty fix and not a "solution" to some of our problems. This is why we outsource very, very little, compared to other companies of our size, and we always have to check the finished product when it is delivered back to us. As far as the original question: "Is CP making people dumber?"... well, do you feel dumber? I sure don't. This is the lounge man, you're allowed to be dumb here...at least that's my opinion. As soon as I leave the lounge I have to put on my thinking cap. -- my two cents
[ Don't do today what can be done tomorrow!! ;) ]
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No, it's not. The proliferation of cheap technology jobs into the 3rd world has caused an explosion of demand for qualified people. There simply isn't enough qualified individuals to fill those positions, but filled they must be. So, the "quality standards" tend to be lowered, and lowered, and lowered, to get bodies into those jobs.
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Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
There simply isn't enough qualified individuals to fill those positions
Sure there are, like me, and I just took a career change else wheres and am really looking forward to it. Because I got sick and tired of job hunting with 10+ years experience in IT with two degrees and people expecting me to work for peanuts. So, I found a rewarding job that starts next week :)
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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I do not see a problem with any level of question posed on forums... I hate to generalize (though I am going to). Generally if you do not need to make any effort in finding the information yourself you will take the easy route (my 0.02) We all seek help during our development. Collegues, friends, books and the internet are all utilized. During a standard working week I don't think I can recall a time where I have not asked one of my collegues a techincal question. My standard line of fire goes (Collegues, friends, internet, books) and yes even after all the time I have been developing software I do still ask dumb questions...and have been given some dumb answers too! :D
Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain)Antony M Kancidrowski wrote:
I do not see a problem with any level of question posed on forums...
I agree. It's not the questions that are the problem, it's the answers. If I see a post that says, "Urgent! How do I write a word processor?", I respond, "Post some of your code, and we will tell you if you're on the right track." The thing that surprised me in your post was the order you gave:
Antony M Kancidrowski wrote:
My standard line of fire goes (Collegues, friends, internet, books)
For me, going to people I work with for some help has to involve something serious, because I know that I'm interrupting their work and causing them to lose their concentration. So I always start with the internet, and then books (if I'm at home).
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
There may be a couple of reasons for this phenomenon. 1 - Word has gotten out about CP in schools. This would account for most of these posts. By continually answering these questions, you invite more questions like these. On the other hand, it is hard to turn your back on a "true" new programmer that is genuinely stuck. A possible solution would be to ask the question of "what have you done so far?" This would make the person who is asking the question to attempt the problem themselves. 2 - Maybe us long-term members have finally graduated beyond the beginner program status? :cool:
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No, there's more dumb people hanging out here. But, like anything, you should google first nowadays! Is The Internet Making People Dumber[^]
SimulationofSai wrote:
And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.
Your bio says you're from the US. It would appear you did not fill in your location correctly. ;P (well, maybe that's your present location). Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
It would appear you did not fill in your location correctly
Yup, I'm from India. And I can hear the stones coming.:)
SG
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CP isn't making people dumber. The assholes who are hiring third-world programming staffs are.
Software Zen:
delete this;That is quite a xenophobic attitude. I have worked with good and not so good people from the third world, just as I have worked with good and not so good people from the industrialized world. Have you talked to a hip-hop inspired young person lately? Did they have anything inspiring to say? :confused:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
I don't know. I'm pretty sure i was this dumb when i started reading CP. I don't think i've got any dumberer.
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Pete O`Hanlon wrote:
so by my reckoning other people outsourcing has been very profitable indeed.
Uh, yeah. That's a good point! Come to think of it, I had the same experience! Of course, my client was pretty pissed, but it was profitable for me! Marc
If it was not really successful, would it have lasted for so many years? I'd say it's been around for about 10 years in India now, probably more. Nor do I see any stop in the work flowing in. Sure, there are a lot of folks yelling that it's bad, and I've come across customers who plainly have said that the work was bad. But that was because they had *absolutely* no idea on how to put across a requirement, use a developer from another country and convince him to think on the his(customers's) terms. I knew a team that worked as an off-shore extension of a team in US. They were contracted for 40 hours a week, had some very good programmers, but who were barely used for about 10 hours or less. At the end of the contract, the business manager from the client cribbed that we did not work enough and was not up to expectations, when in truth, the technology manager never figured out how to make use of the team, and simply reported to his boss that the team was not good. I don't expect you to believe that we weren't at fault, but yes, we have our own arguments to put forth. And not least of all, the scale of work done and the money that flows, proves otherwise. Yes, outsourcing is dying, but instead, it's replaced by getting all the work done here from a local office. Name a big multinational software company that does *not* have a technology center here.
SG
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SimulationofSai wrote:
Outsourcing is deemed a successful business practice both in monetary terms and skills available now.
I've not heard one person say that outsourcing was successful for their company, and my contacts range from technical people to managers to CEO's/CFO's. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I've not heard one person say that outsourcing was successful for their company
Nike :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Reminds me of the late 90's US market in which the typical recruitment went something like this. A: "We're looking for qualified software engineers .. " B: "I have a degree in BS from S-Hole college and 9 months McDonalds experience" A: "A degree? Great! You're too qualified for our entry level position, how does tech lead sound?" I had a degree in comp sci, 0 real world development experience, needed an H1 visa and had 3 offers in 2 weeks. Of course come the crash the market filtered out those who couldn't cut it ..
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
the you were very lucky I have a degree in comp programming, 0 real world experience and had to look for almost a year to find a job everywhere I went the wanted a 20 year old person with 100years of experience (OK a bit over the top but you get the point;P) untill I found my current work (so now I'm happy to be maken money and to be contributing to the economie (but mostly happy about the money part:-D))
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I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
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the you were very lucky I have a degree in comp programming, 0 real world experience and had to look for almost a year to find a job everywhere I went the wanted a 20 year old person with 100years of experience (OK a bit over the top but you get the point;P) untill I found my current work (so now I'm happy to be maken money and to be contributing to the economie (but mostly happy about the money part:-D))
Yes I was lucky, I graduated at exactly the right time. By the time the economy went down the toilet I had enough experience and knew enough people to survive. You also learn a fair degree of humility when you find yourself unemployed in a recesion. Even so it only took 6 weeks to find a job with only a 1k/y cut, not too shabby :-) In my experience to date, when you have 5 or so years in the industry (and keep up with the technology) getting a job isn't that hard.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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Yes I was lucky, I graduated at exactly the right time. By the time the economy went down the toilet I had enough experience and knew enough people to survive. You also learn a fair degree of humility when you find yourself unemployed in a recesion. Even so it only took 6 weeks to find a job with only a 1k/y cut, not too shabby :-) In my experience to date, when you have 5 or so years in the industry (and keep up with the technology) getting a job isn't that hard.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
yeah it's getting that 5 years experience that is the problem these days ah well I'm on my way now so...;P
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Antony M Kancidrowski wrote:
I do not see a problem with any level of question posed on forums...
I agree. It's not the questions that are the problem, it's the answers. If I see a post that says, "Urgent! How do I write a word processor?", I respond, "Post some of your code, and we will tell you if you're on the right track." The thing that surprised me in your post was the order you gave:
Antony M Kancidrowski wrote:
My standard line of fire goes (Collegues, friends, internet, books)
For me, going to people I work with for some help has to involve something serious, because I know that I'm interrupting their work and causing them to lose their concentration. So I always start with the internet, and then books (if I'm at home).
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Dietrich wrote:
For me, going to people I work with for some help has to involve something serious, because I know that I'm interrupting their work and causing them to lose their concentration.
That is true. My order is flexible and all depends on gauging if my collegues are busy. It may be my working environment that is fairly unique. There are only 4 of us who work together on this software. Three of us share an office and there are always times in the day in which we talk to each other, questions usually get asked then. It is easy to gauge if asking a quick question will not distract. Friends I usually ask via email (fairly non-intrusive). After thinking a little more about this I consult MS documentation before asking Collegues etc.. So really books (if you count MS docs as books) comes first.
Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain) -
I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
I've been a member for over 4 years(?)and this has been a regular rant for all that time.:(
"We are all repositories for genetically-encoded information that we're all spreading back and forth amongst each other, all the time. We're just lousy with information." - Neal Stephenson
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I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
SimulationofSai wrote:
No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....
I wasn't aware that CP has a nasty reputation. Where does your perception come from?
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I expect a lot of flaming in this thread, but I'd still go ahead and ask the question. Of the couple of years I've been a CP member, I've seen the standard of questions being asked declining steeply. The kind of programming doubts asked in the forums now are appalling!:wtf: Most are just very very basic questions which can be answered by any book or the myriad online tutorials out there in the web. But the saddest thing is knowledgeable members actually answer those *and* sometimes even provide the code.:( If people can't do some research before asking questions like "how do i send mail?, how do i do something on keypress?, how do i print this form?.........", they should'nt be in a IT company and programming. And to top it all, someone does ultimately answer them and many even write sample code. This will only encourage them to jump to forums for every tiny hurdle they fact, and ultimately prove themselves incapable of learning and researching. And a pitiable fact is I see a lot of my countrymen ask these dumb doubts.:sigh: No wonder we've got such a nasty reputation in CP.....:(
SG
I don't think it is making more stupid - what I put it down to is that computers have become more and more accessible as have the development tools. This means there is a wider range of people to ask dumb questions. At the risk of sounding racist I have noticed a sharp incline of stupid questions coming from developers in countries we outsource to (ie they offer a cheap quote but we still end up doing the work). I am no genius and have asked my fair share of dumb questions I see your point many people now expect code on a plate (no names cough software_specialist cough). I no doubt will get lots of replies with my dumb questions quoted now :p Dan
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If it was not really successful, would it have lasted for so many years? I'd say it's been around for about 10 years in India now, probably more. Nor do I see any stop in the work flowing in. Sure, there are a lot of folks yelling that it's bad, and I've come across customers who plainly have said that the work was bad. But that was because they had *absolutely* no idea on how to put across a requirement, use a developer from another country and convince him to think on the his(customers's) terms. I knew a team that worked as an off-shore extension of a team in US. They were contracted for 40 hours a week, had some very good programmers, but who were barely used for about 10 hours or less. At the end of the contract, the business manager from the client cribbed that we did not work enough and was not up to expectations, when in truth, the technology manager never figured out how to make use of the team, and simply reported to his boss that the team was not good. I don't expect you to believe that we weren't at fault, but yes, we have our own arguments to put forth. And not least of all, the scale of work done and the money that flows, proves otherwise. Yes, outsourcing is dying, but instead, it's replaced by getting all the work done here from a local office. Name a big multinational software company that does *not* have a technology center here.
SG
SimulationofSai wrote:
If it was not really successful, would it have lasted for so many years?
If smoking is proven to cause all sorts of bad health effects, wouldn't people stop smoking or never start? The point being, businesses don't look at failures of other businesses a) because businesses don't make their internal failures public and b) because they think they know better and can do better. As to outsourcing, on paper, the financials look great, which is why the practice continues to grow.
SimulationofSai wrote:
But that was because they had *absolutely* no idea on how to put across a requirement, use a developer from another country and convince him to think on the his(customers's) terms.
Of course, and this is true whether it's outsourced or not. But in my direct experience with outsourcing, none of the programmers ever came back with "are you sure this is what you wanted, and can you verify I'm understanding it correctly", which happens a lot more when you can walk across the hall to the guy that wrote the spec or call the customer at a reasonable hour of the day to verify requirements.
SimulationofSai wrote:
I don't expect you to believe that we weren't at fault, but yes, we have our own arguments to put forth.
Oh, I DO believe you. Marc
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SimulationofSai wrote:
If it was not really successful, would it have lasted for so many years?
If smoking is proven to cause all sorts of bad health effects, wouldn't people stop smoking or never start? The point being, businesses don't look at failures of other businesses a) because businesses don't make their internal failures public and b) because they think they know better and can do better. As to outsourcing, on paper, the financials look great, which is why the practice continues to grow.
SimulationofSai wrote:
But that was because they had *absolutely* no idea on how to put across a requirement, use a developer from another country and convince him to think on the his(customers's) terms.
Of course, and this is true whether it's outsourced or not. But in my direct experience with outsourcing, none of the programmers ever came back with "are you sure this is what you wanted, and can you verify I'm understanding it correctly", which happens a lot more when you can walk across the hall to the guy that wrote the spec or call the customer at a reasonable hour of the day to verify requirements.
SimulationofSai wrote:
I don't expect you to believe that we weren't at fault, but yes, we have our own arguments to put forth.
Oh, I DO believe you. Marc
I understand why people are upset and against outsourcing. But there are success stories as well. I worked at a company that makes a living from outsourcing. And we worked at a product that was bought by Seagate. To be more specific our group was asked to redo something done in the states. If the company that employs outsourcing takes the time to understand cultural differences than it can and it will work. In my opinion there are some great minds in third world too. But the most important thing is correct project management and communication. Come to think Corel Draw is developed in India (and it's a pretty good product).
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