Developers and the Salary Negotiation
-
Josh Smith wrote:
However, that attribute of their personality is disasterous for them during a very crucial, and short-lived, part of their career: the salary negotiation.
There's been a lot written about this issue. And the sad thing is, the geek is often up against a trained negotiator that knows how to take advantage of everything from body language to psychological arm twisting. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
And the sad thing is, the geek is often up against a trained negotiator that knows how to take advantage of everything from body language to psychological arm twisting.
I should append another item to my original list: 7) Always wear a ski mask over your face, and put on a straightjacket before the interview. This helps prevent the negotiator from reading your body language or twisting your arm. :-D
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
And the sad thing is, the geek is often up against a trained negotiator that knows how to take advantage of everything from body language to psychological arm twisting.
I should append another item to my original list: 7) Always wear a ski mask over your face, and put on a straightjacket before the interview. This helps prevent the negotiator from reading your body language or twisting your arm. :-D
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
Josh Smith wrote:
I should append another item to my original list:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler. :) Marc
-
Josh Smith wrote:
I should append another item to my original list:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler.
LOL!!! :laugh: "I have your son...I mean, I worked at Sun." :suss:
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently. I found it to be very interesting so I thought I'd summarize it here. I'm curious to see what your opinions are on this topic. Please keep in mind that I'll be writing in generalities here, not absolutes. Many software developers are introverted, shy, and non-confrontational. For the most part that does not matter since they are not trying to sell things to customers, make public announcements, or arrest thugs. They sit in front of a computer for most of the day. However, that attribute of their personality is disasterous for them during a very crucial, and short-lived, part of their career: the salary negotiation. An interview can be warm, friendly, jovial, etc. But a salary negotiation is always business. Business is aggressive. When companies start talking to you about how much money they are willing to pay you, they are no longer your friends. They are no longer warm, friendly or jovial. Based on that observation, here are some tips for devs (particularly the introverted among us) to keep in mind during a salary negotiation: 1) If you have no or little experience as a professional developer, don't expect too much. Suck it up and pay your dues. If you can get a lot, great...but you don't deserve it and they'll figure that out quick. 2) If you have the skills the employer needs, keep in mind that they probably need you more than you need them. Especially when the job market is in our favor. Never let them convince you that there are dozens of people applying for the same job. If that's the case, the person who will get the job is probably friends with someone else in the company anyways (that's how these things work, btw). 3) If they ask you how much you're looking for, in terms of salary, deflect the question back to them. Never answer first. Say something like, "Considering that my skillset matches what you're looking for I expect to be offered market rate. What did you have in mind?" The key here is the term "market rate." That's something that business folks understand. Make sure you know what you're worth, according to the local job market, before you go to the interview. 4) Don't immediately accept a job, unless you're desparate for cash or the offer is so amazingly good that you don't want to lose it (that's a very rare thing). If you take the job right away, you have no bargaining power to ask for more money the next day. 5) If you already have a job but it sucks; never, ever, let the new company know
Something that would be nice to add to this is a section on head hunters. I've been coding a long time now and they still get to me. When I applied for my current job it was nice that the head hunter handled the salary negotiation part (I'm sure he was much better at it than I was) but there was immediate pressure to "take the job now". The end result was I completely forgot to negotiate for vacation time. I had worked my way up to 3 weeks in my previous position (you have to love 'Merica. It would have been 6 in europe), and now I'm back to 2. My experiences with the head hunters haven't been too bad so far other than the dishonesty. Others I know have had far worse experiences though.
J
Make the logo bigger -
Marc Clifton wrote:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler.
LOL!!! :laugh: "I have your son...I mean, I worked at Sun." :suss:
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
I remember this job "interview" I went to once. I was a consultant with a solid track record at this company, and some manager newly hired decided he would try and push my buttons, so he starts off with a lengthy monologue on not being sure how I fit in with the new project, so on and so forth. This was after having developed a fullblown prototype to simulate satellite Internet communications, including things like rain fade, QoS, etc., and the guy couldn't figure out how I could fit in. So he asks me to put together a proposal of what I could do. Well, I'd already had a few conversations with the jerk on the phone and was psychologically prepared to deliver the following line: "you know, if you can't figure out what I can do for you given the last year of work that I've done, then frankly I'm more than happy to not waste your time or my time trying to come up with some work. You're the manager, it's your job to use the resources you have the best way you can. If you need a few weeks or a few months to think about it, that's fine with me, but just realize that I may not be available then because I'll have taken another job." He had a multi-page task list for me by the end of my visit. The moral of the story: Believe in yourself and that you are valuable and be prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want or you feel like you're being asked to prove yourself, when your resume, references, and track record already do prove yourself. Marc
-
Something that would be nice to add to this is a section on head hunters. I've been coding a long time now and they still get to me. When I applied for my current job it was nice that the head hunter handled the salary negotiation part (I'm sure he was much better at it than I was) but there was immediate pressure to "take the job now". The end result was I completely forgot to negotiate for vacation time. I had worked my way up to 3 weeks in my previous position (you have to love 'Merica. It would have been 6 in europe), and now I'm back to 2. My experiences with the head hunters haven't been too bad so far other than the dishonesty. Others I know have had far worse experiences though.
J
Make the logo biggerjustinjones wrote:
head hunters
:shudder:
justinjones wrote:
My experiences with the head hunters haven't been too bad so far other than the dishonesty. Others I know have had far worse experiences though.
I'm one of the "others" in this case. I once had a headhunter who just simply would not leave me alone. He called me regularly months after I got a job. Several times a week he would call me and aggresively push me to quit my new job and take whatever job he had on his plate. I hated him. I eventually threatened to hit him with a baseball bat if he ever called me again. He never did, oddly enough... :rolleyes:
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
Josh Smith wrote:
I should append another item to my original list:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler.
I have one of those darth vader voice boxes, does that count?
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
I remember this job "interview" I went to once. I was a consultant with a solid track record at this company, and some manager newly hired decided he would try and push my buttons, so he starts off with a lengthy monologue on not being sure how I fit in with the new project, so on and so forth. This was after having developed a fullblown prototype to simulate satellite Internet communications, including things like rain fade, QoS, etc., and the guy couldn't figure out how I could fit in. So he asks me to put together a proposal of what I could do. Well, I'd already had a few conversations with the jerk on the phone and was psychologically prepared to deliver the following line: "you know, if you can't figure out what I can do for you given the last year of work that I've done, then frankly I'm more than happy to not waste your time or my time trying to come up with some work. You're the manager, it's your job to use the resources you have the best way you can. If you need a few weeks or a few months to think about it, that's fine with me, but just realize that I may not be available then because I'll have taken another job." He had a multi-page task list for me by the end of my visit. The moral of the story: Believe in yourself and that you are valuable and be prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want or you feel like you're being asked to prove yourself, when your resume, references, and track record already do prove yourself. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
The moral of the story: Believe in yourself and that you are valuable and be prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want or you feel like you're being asked to prove yourself, when your resume, references, and track record already do prove yourself.
Amen to that.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
Something that would be nice to add to this is a section on head hunters. I've been coding a long time now and they still get to me. When I applied for my current job it was nice that the head hunter handled the salary negotiation part (I'm sure he was much better at it than I was) but there was immediate pressure to "take the job now". The end result was I completely forgot to negotiate for vacation time. I had worked my way up to 3 weeks in my previous position (you have to love 'Merica. It would have been 6 in europe), and now I'm back to 2. My experiences with the head hunters haven't been too bad so far other than the dishonesty. Others I know have had far worse experiences though.
J
Make the logo biggerjustinjones wrote:
the head hunters
species classification: Shark Lawyer Lamprey HeadHunter Leech Mosquito
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
justinjones wrote:
head hunters
:shudder:
justinjones wrote:
My experiences with the head hunters haven't been too bad so far other than the dishonesty. Others I know have had far worse experiences though.
I'm one of the "others" in this case. I once had a headhunter who just simply would not leave me alone. He called me regularly months after I got a job. Several times a week he would call me and aggresively push me to quit my new job and take whatever job he had on his plate. I hated him. I eventually threatened to hit him with a baseball bat if he ever called me again. He never did, oddly enough... :rolleyes:
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
Josh Smith wrote:
if he ever called me again. He never did, oddly enough...
that worked? I had to move and change my number.... I never thought of the other....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
Josh Smith wrote:
if he ever called me again. He never did, oddly enough...
that worked? I had to move and change my number.... I never thought of the other....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
that worked? I had to move and change my number.... I never thought of the other....
Yes it did. Sometimes you need to fight liar with fire.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently. I found it to be very interesting so I thought I'd summarize it here. I'm curious to see what your opinions are on this topic. Please keep in mind that I'll be writing in generalities here, not absolutes. Many software developers are introverted, shy, and non-confrontational. For the most part that does not matter since they are not trying to sell things to customers, make public announcements, or arrest thugs. They sit in front of a computer for most of the day. However, that attribute of their personality is disasterous for them during a very crucial, and short-lived, part of their career: the salary negotiation. An interview can be warm, friendly, jovial, etc. But a salary negotiation is always business. Business is aggressive. When companies start talking to you about how much money they are willing to pay you, they are no longer your friends. They are no longer warm, friendly or jovial. Based on that observation, here are some tips for devs (particularly the introverted among us) to keep in mind during a salary negotiation: 1) If you have no or little experience as a professional developer, don't expect too much. Suck it up and pay your dues. If you can get a lot, great...but you don't deserve it and they'll figure that out quick. 2) If you have the skills the employer needs, keep in mind that they probably need you more than you need them. Especially when the job market is in our favor. Never let them convince you that there are dozens of people applying for the same job. If that's the case, the person who will get the job is probably friends with someone else in the company anyways (that's how these things work, btw). 3) If they ask you how much you're looking for, in terms of salary, deflect the question back to them. Never answer first. Say something like, "Considering that my skillset matches what you're looking for I expect to be offered market rate. What did you have in mind?" The key here is the term "market rate." That's something that business folks understand. Make sure you know what you're worth, according to the local job market, before you go to the interview. 4) Don't immediately accept a job, unless you're desparate for cash or the offer is so amazingly good that you don't want to lose it (that's a very rare thing). If you take the job right away, you have no bargaining power to ask for more money the next day. 5) If you already have a job but it sucks; never, ever, let the new company know
Josh Smith wrote:
If you have the skills the employer needs, keep in mind that they probably need you more than you need them. Especially when the job market is in our favor. Never let them convince you that there are dozens of people applying for the same job. If that's the case, the person who will get the job is probably friends with someone else in the company anyways (that's how these things work, btw).
This is something I will fully admit, I am lousy at. Work has tried, again and again, and again to get someone who can do what I do. They keep getting pieces and they end up helping, but no one has yet fit the bill to understand it all, and no one as yet fits any of the creative criteria. They know it, I know it, but I never saught to take advantage of it. I am at the top end (not the top) salary for my education and state and region, but not national average. I am not sure what will happen should we end up adversaries across the raise table, neither of us ever tried.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
Josh Smith wrote:
I should append another item to my original list:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler. :) Marc
Better with one that modifies your voice to sound like Darth Vader!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
Or negotiate over the phone with a voice scrambler.
I have one of those darth vader voice boxes, does that count?
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Damn you beat me to it!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
-
I remember this job "interview" I went to once. I was a consultant with a solid track record at this company, and some manager newly hired decided he would try and push my buttons, so he starts off with a lengthy monologue on not being sure how I fit in with the new project, so on and so forth. This was after having developed a fullblown prototype to simulate satellite Internet communications, including things like rain fade, QoS, etc., and the guy couldn't figure out how I could fit in. So he asks me to put together a proposal of what I could do. Well, I'd already had a few conversations with the jerk on the phone and was psychologically prepared to deliver the following line: "you know, if you can't figure out what I can do for you given the last year of work that I've done, then frankly I'm more than happy to not waste your time or my time trying to come up with some work. You're the manager, it's your job to use the resources you have the best way you can. If you need a few weeks or a few months to think about it, that's fine with me, but just realize that I may not be available then because I'll have taken another job." He had a multi-page task list for me by the end of my visit. The moral of the story: Believe in yourself and that you are valuable and be prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want or you feel like you're being asked to prove yourself, when your resume, references, and track record already do prove yourself. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
The moral of the story: Believe in yourself and that you are valuable and be prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want or you feel like you're being asked to prove yourself, when your resume, references, and track record already do prove yourself.
Very true indeed...
-
I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently. I found it to be very interesting so I thought I'd summarize it here. I'm curious to see what your opinions are on this topic. Please keep in mind that I'll be writing in generalities here, not absolutes. Many software developers are introverted, shy, and non-confrontational. For the most part that does not matter since they are not trying to sell things to customers, make public announcements, or arrest thugs. They sit in front of a computer for most of the day. However, that attribute of their personality is disasterous for them during a very crucial, and short-lived, part of their career: the salary negotiation. An interview can be warm, friendly, jovial, etc. But a salary negotiation is always business. Business is aggressive. When companies start talking to you about how much money they are willing to pay you, they are no longer your friends. They are no longer warm, friendly or jovial. Based on that observation, here are some tips for devs (particularly the introverted among us) to keep in mind during a salary negotiation: 1) If you have no or little experience as a professional developer, don't expect too much. Suck it up and pay your dues. If you can get a lot, great...but you don't deserve it and they'll figure that out quick. 2) If you have the skills the employer needs, keep in mind that they probably need you more than you need them. Especially when the job market is in our favor. Never let them convince you that there are dozens of people applying for the same job. If that's the case, the person who will get the job is probably friends with someone else in the company anyways (that's how these things work, btw). 3) If they ask you how much you're looking for, in terms of salary, deflect the question back to them. Never answer first. Say something like, "Considering that my skillset matches what you're looking for I expect to be offered market rate. What did you have in mind?" The key here is the term "market rate." That's something that business folks understand. Make sure you know what you're worth, according to the local job market, before you go to the interview. 4) Don't immediately accept a job, unless you're desparate for cash or the offer is so amazingly good that you don't want to lose it (that's a very rare thing). If you take the job right away, you have no bargaining power to ask for more money the next day. 5) If you already have a job but it sucks; never, ever, let the new company know
Josh Smith wrote:
I expect to be offered market rate.
To me, I would never use that term when dealing with a company if you consider your work above the lower percentage of developers as it instantly implies you are willing to take (or at least expecting) the lowest possible salary they can get away with for your skill set. If you do quality work, have great work ethics and the skills to match, you are above the norm and it would probably be better to make it clear your expect more than the norm. Of course, if a person's quality or skill set is not any better than the lower tier of developer, then they would be expecting whatever the going rate happens to be.
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: www.TheWPFDirectory.com site launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: Vista ReadyBoost!
-
Josh Smith wrote:
I expect to be offered market rate.
To me, I would never use that term when dealing with a company if you consider your work above the lower percentage of developers as it instantly implies you are willing to take (or at least expecting) the lowest possible salary they can get away with for your skill set. If you do quality work, have great work ethics and the skills to match, you are above the norm and it would probably be better to make it clear your expect more than the norm. Of course, if a person's quality or skill set is not any better than the lower tier of developer, then they would be expecting whatever the going rate happens to be.
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: www.TheWPFDirectory.com site launched! Latest Tech Blog Post: Vista ReadyBoost!
Rocky Moore wrote:
To me, I would never use that term when dealing with a company if you consider your work above the lower percentage of developers as it instantly implies you are willing to take (or at least expecting) the lowest possible salary they can get away with for your skill set.
That's true. But I wrote that "I expect to be offered market rate." That's different from "I expect to make market rate." I suppose I should have clarified this, but the idea behind my statement is that the negotiator then must offer market rate. At that point you can counter with a rate well above market, if you feel you're worth it.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] Without a strive for perfection I would be terribly bored.
-
justinjones wrote:
the head hunters
species classification: Shark Lawyer Lamprey HeadHunter Leech Mosquito
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently. I found it to be very interesting so I thought I'd summarize it here. I'm curious to see what your opinions are on this topic. Please keep in mind that I'll be writing in generalities here, not absolutes. Many software developers are introverted, shy, and non-confrontational. For the most part that does not matter since they are not trying to sell things to customers, make public announcements, or arrest thugs. They sit in front of a computer for most of the day. However, that attribute of their personality is disasterous for them during a very crucial, and short-lived, part of their career: the salary negotiation. An interview can be warm, friendly, jovial, etc. But a salary negotiation is always business. Business is aggressive. When companies start talking to you about how much money they are willing to pay you, they are no longer your friends. They are no longer warm, friendly or jovial. Based on that observation, here are some tips for devs (particularly the introverted among us) to keep in mind during a salary negotiation: 1) If you have no or little experience as a professional developer, don't expect too much. Suck it up and pay your dues. If you can get a lot, great...but you don't deserve it and they'll figure that out quick. 2) If you have the skills the employer needs, keep in mind that they probably need you more than you need them. Especially when the job market is in our favor. Never let them convince you that there are dozens of people applying for the same job. If that's the case, the person who will get the job is probably friends with someone else in the company anyways (that's how these things work, btw). 3) If they ask you how much you're looking for, in terms of salary, deflect the question back to them. Never answer first. Say something like, "Considering that my skillset matches what you're looking for I expect to be offered market rate. What did you have in mind?" The key here is the term "market rate." That's something that business folks understand. Make sure you know what you're worth, according to the local job market, before you go to the interview. 4) Don't immediately accept a job, unless you're desparate for cash or the offer is so amazingly good that you don't want to lose it (that's a very rare thing). If you take the job right away, you have no bargaining power to ask for more money the next day. 5) If you already have a job but it sucks; never, ever, let the new company know