Would you accept a software developer job offer if...
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The hardest thing for me to test would be someone's problem solving ability. Ofcourse things that have already been done can be looked up, but in software we hardly ever build the same thing twice, otherwise we wouldn't be building it. So one needs to be creative in solving these new problems. And honestly I would not know how to get that above the table in an interview...
Wout
In actuality it's quite simple: you have in front of you at interview the stick with which to beat this information from the prospective employee, metaphorically speaking, their CV/Resume. Ask them about their last project; perhaps: Why did you choose widgets++ to do that or how did you go about solving problem x? Why did you choose that approach? What alternates did you consider? Another method I like is to ask about their favourite design patterns (we all have one: mine is (currently) DBC). Get them to tell you why they like it and how and when to use it: what problem did it solve for them. In that way you're getting to see how they approach and solve problems rather than have they memorised 8 different ways to cook duck without removing the feathers. Get them talking: the more they know a subject the more they'll be likely to talk about it with enthusiasm and gusto: they like what they do and they understand it. See my article on interviewing: that might be useful to you. Giving and Taking an Interview[^] and give it a 5 if it is!
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Jay Gatsby wrote:
Does anybody besides me know that "employer" and "employee" are both old Latin, and roughly translate to "user" and "to be used" respectively?
You know that a tie is nothing more than a collar, right? It's a means of asserting dominance and status over people. By wearing a tie, you are publicly showing your subservience. Avoid jobs where a tie is a dress requirement. ;)
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | A Random Web Page
Indeed. I had an interview once where I was frostily informed by the H.R. person that gentlemen in the company wore ties and white shirts. Jackets were required when you were away from your desk. Bugger that.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
In actuality it's quite simple: you have in front of you at interview the stick with which to beat this information from the prospective employee, metaphorically speaking, their CV/Resume. Ask them about their last project; perhaps: Why did you choose widgets++ to do that or how did you go about solving problem x? Why did you choose that approach? What alternates did you consider? Another method I like is to ask about their favourite design patterns (we all have one: mine is (currently) DBC). Get them to tell you why they like it and how and when to use it: what problem did it solve for them. In that way you're getting to see how they approach and solve problems rather than have they memorised 8 different ways to cook duck without removing the feathers. Get them talking: the more they know a subject the more they'll be likely to talk about it with enthusiasm and gusto: they like what they do and they understand it. See my article on interviewing: that might be useful to you. Giving and Taking an Interview[^] and give it a 5 if it is!
Ah, you have some good points there. Yeah, the road to the solution is definitely the interesting part, the solution itself not. The decision making is what separates the good from the bad...
Wout
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
From my experience, 'technical' interviews can only serve to eliminate candidates, not approve them. If you ask questions and the person screws up the answer badly (or worse, tries to fake it), then that tells you they don't know what they say they know. If they answer all the technical questions correctly, that just tells you they know certain things. It doesn't tell you what they will be like to work with. It doesn't tell you about their habit of watching porn on work time. You don't get to hear how they backstabbed and ass-kissed their way onto the 'hot' project at their last job. Probably most importantly, it doesn't tell you how they named their children using Hungarian notation, because it was the right thing to do.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
DenClancy wrote:
there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
Sure, why not? Most interviewers don't know how to conduct an interview anyways, so this is no different. Marc
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Ah, you have some good points there. Yeah, the road to the solution is definitely the interesting part, the solution itself not. The decision making is what separates the good from the bad...
Wout
Thanks: it does tend to sort the wheat from the chaffe.
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Jay Gatsby wrote:
Does anybody besides me know that "employer" and "employee" are both old Latin, and roughly translate to "user" and "to be used" respectively?
You know that a tie is nothing more than a collar, right? It's a means of asserting dominance and status over people. By wearing a tie, you are publicly showing your subservience. Avoid jobs where a tie is a dress requirement. ;)
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | A Random Web Page
Miszou wrote:
You know that a tie is nothing more than a collar, right? It's a means of asserting dominance and status over people. By wearing a tie, you are publicly showing your subservience.
That makes sense in part where I work; I wear a tie and by what is said above I'm showing my subservience to the owner of the company. He also wears a tie though? So who's he subservient to? His wife?
Never argue with an imbecile; they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I would take some hours of and make a visit to this company just visiting to look what are you expecting. "Where is the rest room? Is the coffee fine?" Try to speak with your future collegues whats up in the job. I got often (different) jobs this way: they really needed somebody because they havent worry about looking for somebody. So they hadnt big choices and I got the jobs with a good payroll.:-O
Greetings from Germany
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Miszou wrote:
You know that a tie is nothing more than a collar, right? It's a means of asserting dominance and status over people. By wearing a tie, you are publicly showing your subservience.
That makes sense in part where I work; I wear a tie and by what is said above I'm showing my subservience to the owner of the company. He also wears a tie though? So who's he subservient to? His wife?
Never argue with an imbecile; they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
For my current job, I was selected with an informal interview about 8 years back. Needless to say that it has been successful.
Co-Author ASP.NET AJAX in Action
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I'd be really suspicious. I've taken 3 jobs without a technical interview and one was really good, the other 2 were full of wtf moments. If you are worried, then find out everything you can about the job, ask to talk to one of the developers or see where you will be working at least.
This blanket smells like ham
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I actually took a position where I was offered the job after a 2 minute phone call in the parking lot of my existing project. Via the rumor mill, I knew my existing project was coming to an end (sooner than later). So, I took the job. It was a fantastic gig, with great people who have become close friends. In hindsight, it's probably very risky. But there are (rare) occasions where it can work out great.
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
DenClancy wrote:
there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience?
Assuming no lies on the resume, it is very possible that the professional experience is VERY relevant. For instance, one of our engineers was hired for this reason, his experience was specific, and extremely relevant to the project at hand. On the phone interview he came across strong and sure, we did fly him out for a direct interview, but that turned out to be an offer and a tour rather than an interview.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I would, in fact I did. And I rejoice over it to this day. I had no degree, I'd been teaching myself C++ and MFC for 6 months. I showed the man who would soon be my boss an app that I had been working on for those 6 months, and that was the interview. I had to work VERY hard in the next 12 months to bring myself up to an employable level, I worked contract at first and billed about 1/2 the hours I worked. I spent most of the money on books, and about 18 months later, I went back to the other place that had interviewed me, and this time got the job there. So, that situation is the reason I have been able to make a career out of programming, despite not having any qualifications. Nowadays, it would depend on several variables 1 - do I already have a job ? I wouldn't leave a job for that situation 2 - How the interview went - were they able to answer my questions about things like source control, for example and so on.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
were they able to answer my questions about things like source control
and if the answer was, "we would like to, but don't have one in place." how would you handle it? Curious since it took me years to get source control here. And the problem wasn't management, per se.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I would take it. For my current job my boss did not ask many technical questions except my experience with databases. So he says, "I need this." And I can do basically what I want. They needed some stuff right away so I did it in Access as had to jump through flaming hoops to get .NET installed onto my computer (as I am not in a 'tech' group). Now I get to rewrite and I have 'artistic freedom.' I love it!
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
Sounds like my current job. Why the question?
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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From my experience, 'technical' interviews can only serve to eliminate candidates, not approve them. If you ask questions and the person screws up the answer badly (or worse, tries to fake it), then that tells you they don't know what they say they know. If they answer all the technical questions correctly, that just tells you they know certain things. It doesn't tell you what they will be like to work with. It doesn't tell you about their habit of watching porn on work time. You don't get to hear how they backstabbed and ass-kissed their way onto the 'hot' project at their last job. Probably most importantly, it doesn't tell you how they named their children using Hungarian notation, because it was the right thing to do.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
...it doesn't tell you how they named their children using Hungarian notation, because it was the right thing to do.
How else are you going to know what type of child each is?
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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The hardest thing for me to test would be someone's problem solving ability. Ofcourse things that have already been done can be looked up, but in software we hardly ever build the same thing twice, otherwise we wouldn't be building it. So one needs to be creative in solving these new problems. And honestly I would not know how to get that above the table in an interview...
Wout
wout de zeeuw wrote:
but in software we hardly ever build the same thing twice
lol... what a nice little thought :)
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
...it doesn't tell you how they named their children using Hungarian notation, because it was the right thing to do.
How else are you going to know what type of child each is?
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
DavidCrow wrote:
How else are you going to know what type of child each is?
If i ever have kids some day... His name is SO going to be bBobby or if its a girl gSarah
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there was not even a technical interview just an informal one asking about professional experience? (Assuming that every other factor is reasonable)
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
Sure, but you need to ask a few questions yourself. Based on my personal experience whenever I deal with potential customers/employers I always ask something like these questions if it hasn't been explicitly stated during the interview process. 1) What RCS system is being used? 2) How are projects documented and managed? 3) What will be my interaction with the end users? 4) What dev tools do you currently use, and what are you looking to use? Basically, I just want to try and determine the work environment and if I will end up bootstrapping the dev process. I don't necessarily mind that but, sometimes it gets a bit tiresome to be the "programmer" and have a parade of users outside of your office when you are trying to get some work done. good luck -- modified at 9:55 Wednesday 15th August, 2007
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long