Girls best boys in tech A-Levels
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Why the one vote? It has always been the case that girls outperform boys, except for the far end of the bell curve. That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking. I find it quite disturbing that my MSc qualified girlfriend finds it difficult to get a job that pays a half decent wage whereas I earn a pretty good living with half dropped out A Levels.
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Why the one vote? It has always been the case that girls outperform boys, except for the far end of the bell curve. That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking. I find it quite disturbing that my MSc qualified girlfriend finds it difficult to get a job that pays a half decent wage whereas I earn a pretty good living with half dropped out A Levels.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Why the one vote?
Because we are lazy and we perfer to click not cut and paste.
Mike Lasseter
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Why the one vote?
Because we are lazy and we perfer to click not cut and paste.
Mike Lasseter
Give me convenience or give me death.
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Why the one vote? It has always been the case that girls outperform boys, except for the far end of the bell curve. That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking. I find it quite disturbing that my MSc qualified girlfriend finds it difficult to get a job that pays a half decent wage whereas I earn a pretty good living with half dropped out A Levels.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking.
You said it in your message is one reason, the other is that many women are discouraged from entering into technical fields. The issue with girls vs. boys in CS studies first started showing up in the 80's during one of the booms on computer programming professions. Such surveys existed from grade school to college in various areas, computer use was starting in the schools (with the Apple School program as well as others), so you had your first real feel for across the board computer use from grade-school up. But remember, skill does not translate into interest. Just because someone is good (or even great) does not always mean that will be their career. Back in high school one lady had the highest grades in most classes (the others she was too bored in), she scored the highest in the state on SAT and ACT and in the top <1% of the nation. She was smart, real smart, so smart that "smart" was an understatement. She was bored in high school because it was too easy, and that was the main reason she didn't take a 4.0. I was furious at her when I found out her career choice was clothing design, which in hindsight, I will admit she was good at too. It was years later before I realized, in a job in which I was miserable, that enjoying your work was more important. She could have chosen any career, and probably bested most people at it, but she wouldn't have enjoyed it. Skill is one thing, interest and enjoyment another.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking.
You said it in your message is one reason, the other is that many women are discouraged from entering into technical fields. The issue with girls vs. boys in CS studies first started showing up in the 80's during one of the booms on computer programming professions. Such surveys existed from grade school to college in various areas, computer use was starting in the schools (with the Apple School program as well as others), so you had your first real feel for across the board computer use from grade-school up. But remember, skill does not translate into interest. Just because someone is good (or even great) does not always mean that will be their career. Back in high school one lady had the highest grades in most classes (the others she was too bored in), she scored the highest in the state on SAT and ACT and in the top <1% of the nation. She was smart, real smart, so smart that "smart" was an understatement. She was bored in high school because it was too easy, and that was the main reason she didn't take a 4.0. I was furious at her when I found out her career choice was clothing design, which in hindsight, I will admit she was good at too. It was years later before I realized, in a job in which I was miserable, that enjoying your work was more important. She could have chosen any career, and probably bested most people at it, but she wouldn't have enjoyed it. Skill is one thing, interest and enjoyment another.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
It was years later before I realized, in a job in which I was miserable, that enjoying your work was more important. She could have chosen any career, and probably bested most people at it, but she wouldn't have enjoyed it. Skill is one thing, interest and enjoyment another.
That probably is the best advice of the day thusfar... I'm stuck in a programming job which has become more of a tech support job and which I am not enjoying. So I know exactly what your says as its hard to motivate yourself in the morning to get up! :sigh: On the bright side I got an interview this week for a .NET dev position that i'm pretty excited about! :-D Anyways you got my 5.0...
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Why the one vote?
Because we are lazy and we perfer to click not cut and paste.
Mike Lasseter
Sometimes I just forget to hyperlink it. If pasting from IE the hyperlink appears automatically. Not so from Firefox. :((
Kevin
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
That they do it in CS too should be no surprise. Why that isn't converted into careers in technology (and even those that do are often in less technical roles) is worth asking.
You said it in your message is one reason, the other is that many women are discouraged from entering into technical fields. The issue with girls vs. boys in CS studies first started showing up in the 80's during one of the booms on computer programming professions. Such surveys existed from grade school to college in various areas, computer use was starting in the schools (with the Apple School program as well as others), so you had your first real feel for across the board computer use from grade-school up. But remember, skill does not translate into interest. Just because someone is good (or even great) does not always mean that will be their career. Back in high school one lady had the highest grades in most classes (the others she was too bored in), she scored the highest in the state on SAT and ACT and in the top <1% of the nation. She was smart, real smart, so smart that "smart" was an understatement. She was bored in high school because it was too easy, and that was the main reason she didn't take a 4.0. I was furious at her when I found out her career choice was clothing design, which in hindsight, I will admit she was good at too. It was years later before I realized, in a job in which I was miserable, that enjoying your work was more important. She could have chosen any career, and probably bested most people at it, but she wouldn't have enjoyed it. Skill is one thing, interest and enjoyment another.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Interesting if women are discouraged from entering into programming. Programming was originally a bit of a drudge job, considered low-paid monkey work (and thus clearly suitable for women) - according to a female programmer a lot older than I who started out "back in the day", and the majority of people being trained up for the jobs were women when she started. I believe she applied for the job training in the same way a young woman now might sign up to get a certificate in how to make coffee or serve customers and earn minimum wage. I'm nowhere near as clever as the woman in your story, but I do also want to be a fashion design or clothing industry kind of person. Of course, instead of being discouraged from doing technical or "boys" things, I was encouraged in those directions because I was good at them, which is fair enough and I enjoy them too, but I always felt (I was shy and timid too) too scared to even WANT to do artistic things, let alone actually do them. People at school did not seem terribly interested in encouraging a career in creative things, and I felt, and still feel, guilty for being interested in things that "smart" people don't do*. Smart people don't go to fashion school (actually, I am finding that that is mostly true ;P) and if I say to the fashion students I am a programmer they say "what are you doing here then?". Ummm, duh, "what are you doing here? I'm here because I want to be." When I did photography in my last year of school, people said "oh, it's good to do something different". That seemed wrong to me. I wasn't doing it because it was different, but because I wanted to. Other people apparently did arts because they were good at it and enjoyed it; but I must have been doing it because I "needed a break" from all that maths and physics.:doh: I seriously felt like some kind of alien. *I am doing a few fashion courses part-time :) P.S. I've never seen women be discouraged from entering technical fields; I guess I am lucky.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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Interesting if women are discouraged from entering into programming. Programming was originally a bit of a drudge job, considered low-paid monkey work (and thus clearly suitable for women) - according to a female programmer a lot older than I who started out "back in the day", and the majority of people being trained up for the jobs were women when she started. I believe she applied for the job training in the same way a young woman now might sign up to get a certificate in how to make coffee or serve customers and earn minimum wage. I'm nowhere near as clever as the woman in your story, but I do also want to be a fashion design or clothing industry kind of person. Of course, instead of being discouraged from doing technical or "boys" things, I was encouraged in those directions because I was good at them, which is fair enough and I enjoy them too, but I always felt (I was shy and timid too) too scared to even WANT to do artistic things, let alone actually do them. People at school did not seem terribly interested in encouraging a career in creative things, and I felt, and still feel, guilty for being interested in things that "smart" people don't do*. Smart people don't go to fashion school (actually, I am finding that that is mostly true ;P) and if I say to the fashion students I am a programmer they say "what are you doing here then?". Ummm, duh, "what are you doing here? I'm here because I want to be." When I did photography in my last year of school, people said "oh, it's good to do something different". That seemed wrong to me. I wasn't doing it because it was different, but because I wanted to. Other people apparently did arts because they were good at it and enjoyed it; but I must have been doing it because I "needed a break" from all that maths and physics.:doh: I seriously felt like some kind of alien. *I am doing a few fashion courses part-time :) P.S. I've never seen women be discouraged from entering technical fields; I guess I am lucky.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
standgale wrote:
Programming was originally a bit of a drudge job, considered low-paid monkey work (and thus clearly suitable for women)
One of the reason many of the first programmers were women, and a few of the first languages were written by women. When it stopped being considered a low-end hated job and started being interesting, they got pushed out.
standgale wrote:
I wasn't doing it because it was different, but because I wanted to.
an excellent reason to be doing anything! I think one of the reasons I held a grudge against Stephanie had nothing to do with her, and a bit to do with me. I had already been 4 years discouraged from my first choice in careers, art. I will admit to a bit more of the art background, some I had to sneek in, use food money to pay for it to hide it, things like that. My aunt was an artist, and ended up as a draftsman for the USGS because she could not support herself, my family was saving me from the same disappointment by forbidding any art classes in high school on. Of course I cheated, and now I do 3D graphics, I found my own way into art through computers. My Mother is happy because I am in a technical, not art related career and will brag about all the wonderful things she did to encourage me to this career. Had I followed her orders to the letter, I would be a lousy programmer for this career. But she can have her illusions, and if Stephanie had gone to the last reunion, I would have appologized most sincerely.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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standgale wrote:
Programming was originally a bit of a drudge job, considered low-paid monkey work (and thus clearly suitable for women)
One of the reason many of the first programmers were women, and a few of the first languages were written by women. When it stopped being considered a low-end hated job and started being interesting, they got pushed out.
standgale wrote:
I wasn't doing it because it was different, but because I wanted to.
an excellent reason to be doing anything! I think one of the reasons I held a grudge against Stephanie had nothing to do with her, and a bit to do with me. I had already been 4 years discouraged from my first choice in careers, art. I will admit to a bit more of the art background, some I had to sneek in, use food money to pay for it to hide it, things like that. My aunt was an artist, and ended up as a draftsman for the USGS because she could not support herself, my family was saving me from the same disappointment by forbidding any art classes in high school on. Of course I cheated, and now I do 3D graphics, I found my own way into art through computers. My Mother is happy because I am in a technical, not art related career and will brag about all the wonderful things she did to encourage me to this career. Had I followed her orders to the letter, I would be a lousy programmer for this career. But she can have her illusions, and if Stephanie had gone to the last reunion, I would have appologized most sincerely.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
It is interesting how many people in computer science in my class also studied design or film or music or some similar thing. Being "arty" and in the programming field is very common, though I guess few people realise it, especially outside of the field. And the graphics classes are always the biggest and most eagerly anticipated, I don't think just because it is trendy. And even if it is trendy, why would it be so if not because people have an interest in graphics, pictures, animation and arts? "Because I want to" is for some reason not a reason most people assume. And when people ask why one is NOT doing a particular thing, "Because I don't want to" is equally surprising to them!
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams