Reasons to get out of Iraq
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You do realize that our government has absolutely NO CLUE what those words mean? Plus, that is your morals, not the morals of all. I think it's a moral obligation that the biggest military in the world send some soldiers to help in Darfur. But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
Leaving Iraq will not lead to intervention in Darfur. And I do not feel we have any responsibility to be the worlds policeman. Why should we be the ones to send troops to Darfur? Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
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I have a neighbor adjacent to my backyard and I've never talked to him. His daughter in law (DIL) also lives in the area and works where I do and we started talking. She said that my privacy fence is 4 inches over the property line and I need to move it as he wants to sell his property next spring. I researched and found out that my survey of the land shows I'm not over, plus the fence has been there over 10 years which means I have squatters rights. I haven't told him yet but I'm sure he'll be pissed. I guess he told all the previous owners the same thing and no one did anything about it.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
fun. MY parents don't know their property line more precisely than the treeline ringing the lot. Neither the grandkids they bought the house from nor either of the neighbors knew it more precisely than that and they didn't want to spend the money to survey it at the time. Since the bulk of my parents property is wooded and the neighbors are primarily grass/crop fields it's presumably but not provably theirs. Fortunately they've all been able manage it reasonably. Broken trees are the issue of whoever's property they fell on*, and the family on one side has actively thinned the trees most overhanging their property to limit the amount of land unfarmable due to choke cherries being dropped. *if one of the few really big ones fell onto my parents property they'd probably let the neighbors have it since they have a much bigger chainsaw and a wood burning furnace.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Al Beback wrote:
What most Americans voted for this past year is to get a timeline that includes the progressive withdrawal of our troops from Iraq.
cool - so now they read minds at the polling station?
Al Beback wrote:
This would benefit our troops (ie, they would have a clear goal),
Troops do have a clear goal, execute the commands given by a superior.
Al Beback wrote:
it would benefit Americans who for several years have seen NO progress in our very expensive and deadly adventure.
No progress? Who owns the measuring stick? I've seen plenty of progress, you just have to look somewhere other than the lame stream media.
Al Beback wrote:
We're in middle of a civil war; it's not our war anymore. We're spending billions of dollars and putting our troops on the line for nothing. We got rid of the evil dictator, now it's time to let the Iraqis deal with their problems.
Incredibly naive.
Al Beback wrote:
Tell me, if Mexico had a civil war, would you care?
If I were responsible for igniting it, yep.
Al Beback wrote:
If the answer was because they want the foreign occupiers to leave, would you then oblige them?
I really didn't expect you to get the point, but I'll restate it just in case: If they wanted us to leave, they'd be quiet for a week or so, then the yammering of the Democrats would in fact force us out.
Al Beback wrote:
You care more about not looking like a wussy who got his butt kicked in recess.
No, I'm more concerned about the enemy believing we're wussys.
Al Beback wrote:
there are American lives at stake.
like I've said before, we lose 40,000 plus lives a year owing to auto accidents, ready to pull cars off the road?
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
No, I'm more concerned about the enemy believing we're wussys.
Excuse me.... ummmm ... the enemy believing "we're not committed to finishing what we started" at least, I hope that's what you meant. I'm all for it as long has we have some military experts that believe we have a plan that will ... finish what we started. Please note, these experts do not include Bush , Cheny, Rove, Rumsfeld or any other asswipes working in that administration. And quite frankly I don't care if they aren't having sex in the oval office with an intern they all still SUCK!
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
No, I'm more concerned about the enemy believing we're wussys.
Excuse me.... ummmm ... the enemy believing "we're not committed to finishing what we started" at least, I hope that's what you meant. I'm all for it as long has we have some military experts that believe we have a plan that will ... finish what we started. Please note, these experts do not include Bush , Cheny, Rove, Rumsfeld or any other asswipes working in that administration. And quite frankly I don't care if they aren't having sex in the oval office with an intern they all still SUCK!
led mike wrote:
the enemy believing "we're not committed to finishing what we started" at least, I hope that's what you meant.
yep.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have a neighbor adjacent to my backyard and I've never talked to him. His daughter in law (DIL) also lives in the area and works where I do and we started talking. She said that my privacy fence is 4 inches over the property line and I need to move it as he wants to sell his property next spring. I researched and found out that my survey of the land shows I'm not over, plus the fence has been there over 10 years which means I have squatters rights. I haven't told him yet but I'm sure he'll be pissed. I guess he told all the previous owners the same thing and no one did anything about it.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
I think it all comes down to personalities. My neighbour and I have no real idea where the fence line is, we just built a fence together, and made a best guess. If it's out, it's not by much, but I guarentee it's got a leeway of more than 4 inches. I guess it's different if we were on a suburban block, perhaps, but I can't imagine fighting over 4 inches of dirt. And that fence line goes for about 300 metres, so in theory, I lose a lot more than someone on a small block.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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oilFactotum wrote:
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away?
do you practice this? Here, let me help" Chased out - running from a fight. Running away - running from a fight.
oilFactotum wrote:
So, what is the point of staying?
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon. by and large you're supporting an incredibly simplistic view. There's nothing other than distain to be gained by leaving. The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death, the Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey - with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience? You're not worried about military deaths, these are volunteers who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and if you were worried about needless death you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You're comparing the war in Iraq to a fight with a school-yard bully and you're calling me simplistic?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
supporting an incredibly simplistic view.
This post was about why to get out, not how to get out. So, I haven't said anything about how we ought to get out. That means you don't know what my view is on that. But I will go ahead and respond to
Mike Gaskey wrote:
The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death,
Perhaps, but we aren't keeping them safe now. From the article I originally linked to: "These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families." If we leave we can evacuate many of the vulnerable.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey
We protected the Kurds even while Saddam was in power, There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience?
The death of Iraqis is already on my conscience now. The civil war did not exist before we invaded.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
You're not worried about military deaths
Well, yes I am. Volunteers or not, they should not be put in harms way needlessly.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
One does not excuse the other. Now please tell me what can be accomplished by staying. How long? How many troops and where would you get them? The military says it can't maintain 160,000 beyond the spring. Where would you get the extra 350,000 - 400,000 troops many would argue are necessary to wage a successful anti-insurgent campaign in Iraq?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You're comparing the war in Iraq to a fight with a school-yard bully and you're calling me simplistic?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
supporting an incredibly simplistic view.
This post was about why to get out, not how to get out. So, I haven't said anything about how we ought to get out. That means you don't know what my view is on that. But I will go ahead and respond to
Mike Gaskey wrote:
The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death,
Perhaps, but we aren't keeping them safe now. From the article I originally linked to: "These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families." If we leave we can evacuate many of the vulnerable.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey
We protected the Kurds even while Saddam was in power, There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience?
The death of Iraqis is already on my conscience now. The civil war did not exist before we invaded.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
You're not worried about military deaths
Well, yes I am. Volunteers or not, they should not be put in harms way needlessly.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
One does not excuse the other. Now please tell me what can be accomplished by staying. How long? How many troops and where would you get them? The military says it can't maintain 160,000 beyond the spring. Where would you get the extra 350,000 - 400,000 troops many would argue are necessary to wage a successful anti-insurgent campaign in Iraq?
oilFactotum wrote:
You're comparing the war in Iraq to a fight with a school-yard bully and you're calling me simplistic?
yes on both counts. the school-yard analogy is apropos of why we were the target on 9-11: ran from Veitnam, ran from Lebanon, ad nasuem. running one more time certainly won't prove anything except that we're accomplished milers.
oilFactotum wrote:
We protected the Kurds even while Saddam was in power, There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.
Oh ye there is, we'd have to do it on the ground and that wouild be against either or both Turkey and Iran - have the stomach for that one?
oilFactotum wrote:
The death of Iraqis is already on my conscience now. The civil war did not exist before we invaded.
no, just mass murder, rape rooms, torture rooms and rape whenever needed.
oilFactotum wrote:
Well, yes I am. Volunteers or not, they should not be put in harms way needlessly.
your opinion but not the opinion of the volunteers.
oilFactotum wrote:
Now please tell me what can be accomplished by staying.
the next enemy knows we won't fold.
oilFactotum wrote:
How long?
10 years. we need to be there because of Iran. but if we leave we'll be back in the region within a year, aiding the Kurds or Israelis possibly the Saudis.
oilFactotum wrote:
Where would you get the extra 350,000 - 400,000 troops many would argue are necessary to wage a successful anti-insurgent campaign in Iraq?
I'm fine with either a draft or simply the authorization to increase the size of the volunteer army.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I think it all comes down to personalities. My neighbour and I have no real idea where the fence line is, we just built a fence together, and made a best guess. If it's out, it's not by much, but I guarentee it's got a leeway of more than 4 inches. I guess it's different if we were on a suburban block, perhaps, but I can't imagine fighting over 4 inches of dirt. And that fence line goes for about 300 metres, so in theory, I lose a lot more than someone on a small block.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I can't imagine fighting over 4 inches of dirt.
My 2nd wife's father was a finish carpenter and cabinet maker who once decided to start building spec houses (built on the speculation of a sale). The first attempt relied on a flawed survey. He had to take down the house and lost what to him was a fortune.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Leaving Iraq will not lead to intervention in Darfur. And I do not feel we have any responsibility to be the worlds policeman. Why should we be the ones to send troops to Darfur? Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
and THAT is a very salient point and you get a 5 :) bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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Christian Graus wrote:
I can't imagine fighting over 4 inches of dirt.
My 2nd wife's father was a finish carpenter and cabinet maker who once decided to start building spec houses (built on the speculation of a sale). The first attempt relied on a flawed survey. He had to take down the house and lost what to him was a fortune.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
See - that's what sucks. I know the fence line on the main part of my front yard gives my neighbour a couple of inches of my land. I can't imagine being so petty. I've had enough problems with neighbours, without making trouble over nothing.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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You do realize that our government has absolutely NO CLUE what those words mean? Plus, that is your morals, not the morals of all. I think it's a moral obligation that the biggest military in the world send some soldiers to help in Darfur. But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
leckey wrote:
But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
1 crisis at a time. we do after all have the UN.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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oilFactotum wrote:
You're comparing the war in Iraq to a fight with a school-yard bully and you're calling me simplistic?
yes on both counts. the school-yard analogy is apropos of why we were the target on 9-11: ran from Veitnam, ran from Lebanon, ad nasuem. running one more time certainly won't prove anything except that we're accomplished milers.
oilFactotum wrote:
We protected the Kurds even while Saddam was in power, There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.
Oh ye there is, we'd have to do it on the ground and that wouild be against either or both Turkey and Iran - have the stomach for that one?
oilFactotum wrote:
The death of Iraqis is already on my conscience now. The civil war did not exist before we invaded.
no, just mass murder, rape rooms, torture rooms and rape whenever needed.
oilFactotum wrote:
Well, yes I am. Volunteers or not, they should not be put in harms way needlessly.
your opinion but not the opinion of the volunteers.
oilFactotum wrote:
Now please tell me what can be accomplished by staying.
the next enemy knows we won't fold.
oilFactotum wrote:
How long?
10 years. we need to be there because of Iran. but if we leave we'll be back in the region within a year, aiding the Kurds or Israelis possibly the Saudis.
oilFactotum wrote:
Where would you get the extra 350,000 - 400,000 troops many would argue are necessary to wage a successful anti-insurgent campaign in Iraq?
I'm fine with either a draft or simply the authorization to increase the size of the volunteer army.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Oh ye there is
You say there is a reason we couldn't do it - well what is it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
against either or both Turkey and Iran
Unlikely scenario - they could easily be deterred. Besides it easier to keep them away from the Kurds than invading and occupying a country.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the next enemy knows we won't fold.
That's it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but if we leave we'll be back in the region
No, doubt, but I never suggested we should leave the region. I do think we need to get out from the middle of a civil war, but I have not suggested that we ignore Iraq.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
10 years.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm fine with either a draft or simply the authorization to increase the size of the volunteer army.
Good for you. Too bad not Bush, not any pro-war republican candidate will ever do any such thing. At least my idea is within the realm of political feasability. Your's is not.
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See - that's what sucks. I know the fence line on the main part of my front yard gives my neighbour a couple of inches of my land. I can't imagine being so petty. I've had enough problems with neighbours, without making trouble over nothing.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
How much land do you have? We have 5 acres, and we are smack in the middle of the block, surrounded by trees... very peaceful...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilfactotum must be Iranian. That explains his anti-American sentiment.
I didn't percieve the post as anti-American.
Steve
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
The longer we stay there, the longer it will seem that way. We're caught up in a deadly game of whac-a-mole that we can't win with the over-extended troops we have there. Hopefully the next administration will wise up to the reality.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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I didn't percieve the post as anti-American.
Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I didn't percieve to post to be anti-American.
Anyone who espouses any view that remotely contradicts Red's is antiAmerican. He belongs to the Joseph McCarthy school of politics.
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs
By "engaging - but not defeating - the terrorist enemy with one of the smartest, most high-tech militaries the world has ever known. To survive, the terrorists and insurgents and militias need to keep improvising their tactics, honing their skills and constantly improving their equipment. These skills and devices are transferable from Iraq across the globe. We may, in other words, be giving Jihadists the best training they have ever had, without obliterating them"
Mike Gaskey wrote:
how far would you run
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away? So, what is the point of staying? Can we quell the Iraqi civil war? We might have if we had put in 500,000 troops 3 years ago. But what we have is a "surge" of 160,000 and that will only last until next spring. That hasn't quelled the civil war. The Bagdad government doesn't exist as a national entity and no amount of US troops can change that. The militias have not been disarmed, the terrorists have not been defeated and we have a sectarian police and military. None of this is getting better. Much is getting worse. And this has been the reality for three years now.
oilFactotum wrote:
the terrorists have not been defeated
I agree with much of what you have to say. I find the quote above a little ironic however: the Iraq war has incubated the terrorist problem in Iraq and the purported links with terrorists organisations claimed by the “coalition of the willing” turned out to be bullocks.
Steve
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Leaving Iraq will not lead to intervention in Darfur. And I do not feel we have any responsibility to be the worlds policeman. Why should we be the ones to send troops to Darfur? Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
"Once in Africa I lost the corkscrew and we were forced to live off food and water for weeks." - Ernest Hemingway My New Blog
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike, you just got it totally backwards. Here is the scenario: Lion tamer keeps slapping a lion around the face and the lion keeps trying to bite him. The lion tamer says, 'When you stop trying to bite me, I will stop slapping you' The Lion says, 'When you stop slapping me arond the face, I will stop trying to bite you'. Mike, get out of Iraq. Leave them to whatever hell or heaven they create for themselves, but stop wasting american lives in a pointless struggle. Also, there is no shame in turning around and walking away from a psychopathic crazy who is harrassing you.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Mike, you just got it totally backwards. Here is the scenario: Lion tamer keeps slapping a lion around the face and the lion keeps trying to bite him. The lion tamer says, 'When you stop trying to bite me, I will stop slapping you' The Lion says, 'When you stop slapping me arond the face, I will stop trying to bite you'. Mike, get out of Iraq. Leave them to whatever hell or heaven they create for themselves, but stop wasting american lives in a pointless struggle. Also, there is no shame in turning around and walking away from a psychopathic crazy who is harrassing you.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
Probably better to back away - it's best not to turn your back on a psychopathic crazy :)