Reasons to get out of Iraq
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You do realize that our government has absolutely NO CLUE what those words mean? Plus, that is your morals, not the morals of all. I think it's a moral obligation that the biggest military in the world send some soldiers to help in Darfur. But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
leckey wrote:
But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
1 crisis at a time. we do after all have the UN.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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oilFactotum wrote:
You're comparing the war in Iraq to a fight with a school-yard bully and you're calling me simplistic?
yes on both counts. the school-yard analogy is apropos of why we were the target on 9-11: ran from Veitnam, ran from Lebanon, ad nasuem. running one more time certainly won't prove anything except that we're accomplished milers.
oilFactotum wrote:
We protected the Kurds even while Saddam was in power, There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.
Oh ye there is, we'd have to do it on the ground and that wouild be against either or both Turkey and Iran - have the stomach for that one?
oilFactotum wrote:
The death of Iraqis is already on my conscience now. The civil war did not exist before we invaded.
no, just mass murder, rape rooms, torture rooms and rape whenever needed.
oilFactotum wrote:
Well, yes I am. Volunteers or not, they should not be put in harms way needlessly.
your opinion but not the opinion of the volunteers.
oilFactotum wrote:
Now please tell me what can be accomplished by staying.
the next enemy knows we won't fold.
oilFactotum wrote:
How long?
10 years. we need to be there because of Iran. but if we leave we'll be back in the region within a year, aiding the Kurds or Israelis possibly the Saudis.
oilFactotum wrote:
Where would you get the extra 350,000 - 400,000 troops many would argue are necessary to wage a successful anti-insurgent campaign in Iraq?
I'm fine with either a draft or simply the authorization to increase the size of the volunteer army.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Oh ye there is
You say there is a reason we couldn't do it - well what is it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
against either or both Turkey and Iran
Unlikely scenario - they could easily be deterred. Besides it easier to keep them away from the Kurds than invading and occupying a country.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the next enemy knows we won't fold.
That's it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but if we leave we'll be back in the region
No, doubt, but I never suggested we should leave the region. I do think we need to get out from the middle of a civil war, but I have not suggested that we ignore Iraq.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
10 years.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm fine with either a draft or simply the authorization to increase the size of the volunteer army.
Good for you. Too bad not Bush, not any pro-war republican candidate will ever do any such thing. At least my idea is within the realm of political feasability. Your's is not.
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See - that's what sucks. I know the fence line on the main part of my front yard gives my neighbour a couple of inches of my land. I can't imagine being so petty. I've had enough problems with neighbours, without making trouble over nothing.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
How much land do you have? We have 5 acres, and we are smack in the middle of the block, surrounded by trees... very peaceful...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilfactotum must be Iranian. That explains his anti-American sentiment.
I didn't percieve the post as anti-American.
Steve
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
The longer we stay there, the longer it will seem that way. We're caught up in a deadly game of whac-a-mole that we can't win with the over-extended troops we have there. Hopefully the next administration will wise up to the reality.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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I didn't percieve the post as anti-American.
Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I didn't percieve to post to be anti-American.
Anyone who espouses any view that remotely contradicts Red's is antiAmerican. He belongs to the Joseph McCarthy school of politics.
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs
By "engaging - but not defeating - the terrorist enemy with one of the smartest, most high-tech militaries the world has ever known. To survive, the terrorists and insurgents and militias need to keep improvising their tactics, honing their skills and constantly improving their equipment. These skills and devices are transferable from Iraq across the globe. We may, in other words, be giving Jihadists the best training they have ever had, without obliterating them"
Mike Gaskey wrote:
how far would you run
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away? So, what is the point of staying? Can we quell the Iraqi civil war? We might have if we had put in 500,000 troops 3 years ago. But what we have is a "surge" of 160,000 and that will only last until next spring. That hasn't quelled the civil war. The Bagdad government doesn't exist as a national entity and no amount of US troops can change that. The militias have not been disarmed, the terrorists have not been defeated and we have a sectarian police and military. None of this is getting better. Much is getting worse. And this has been the reality for three years now.
oilFactotum wrote:
the terrorists have not been defeated
I agree with much of what you have to say. I find the quote above a little ironic however: the Iraq war has incubated the terrorist problem in Iraq and the purported links with terrorists organisations claimed by the “coalition of the willing” turned out to be bullocks.
Steve
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Leaving Iraq will not lead to intervention in Darfur. And I do not feel we have any responsibility to be the worlds policeman. Why should we be the ones to send troops to Darfur? Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
"Once in Africa I lost the corkscrew and we were forced to live off food and water for weeks." - Ernest Hemingway My New Blog
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike, you just got it totally backwards. Here is the scenario: Lion tamer keeps slapping a lion around the face and the lion keeps trying to bite him. The lion tamer says, 'When you stop trying to bite me, I will stop slapping you' The Lion says, 'When you stop slapping me arond the face, I will stop trying to bite you'. Mike, get out of Iraq. Leave them to whatever hell or heaven they create for themselves, but stop wasting american lives in a pointless struggle. Also, there is no shame in turning around and walking away from a psychopathic crazy who is harrassing you.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Mike, you just got it totally backwards. Here is the scenario: Lion tamer keeps slapping a lion around the face and the lion keeps trying to bite him. The lion tamer says, 'When you stop trying to bite me, I will stop slapping you' The Lion says, 'When you stop slapping me arond the face, I will stop trying to bite you'. Mike, get out of Iraq. Leave them to whatever hell or heaven they create for themselves, but stop wasting american lives in a pointless struggle. Also, there is no shame in turning around and walking away from a psychopathic crazy who is harrassing you.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
Probably better to back away - it's best not to turn your back on a psychopathic crazy :)
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Leaving Iraq will not lead to intervention in Darfur. And I do not feel we have any responsibility to be the worlds policeman. Why should we be the ones to send troops to Darfur? Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
The rest of the world simply chooses not to interfere in the sovereignty of another country. I would'nt think that *any* country would try to act as a *policeman* unless it saw some material/political gain out of it. Even the UN does not do that.
SG
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Al Beback wrote:
What most Americans voted for this past year is to get a timeline that includes the progressive withdrawal of our troops from Iraq.
cool - so now they read minds at the polling station?
Al Beback wrote:
This would benefit our troops (ie, they would have a clear goal),
Troops do have a clear goal, execute the commands given by a superior.
Al Beback wrote:
it would benefit Americans who for several years have seen NO progress in our very expensive and deadly adventure.
No progress? Who owns the measuring stick? I've seen plenty of progress, you just have to look somewhere other than the lame stream media.
Al Beback wrote:
We're in middle of a civil war; it's not our war anymore. We're spending billions of dollars and putting our troops on the line for nothing. We got rid of the evil dictator, now it's time to let the Iraqis deal with their problems.
Incredibly naive.
Al Beback wrote:
Tell me, if Mexico had a civil war, would you care?
If I were responsible for igniting it, yep.
Al Beback wrote:
If the answer was because they want the foreign occupiers to leave, would you then oblige them?
I really didn't expect you to get the point, but I'll restate it just in case: If they wanted us to leave, they'd be quiet for a week or so, then the yammering of the Democrats would in fact force us out.
Al Beback wrote:
You care more about not looking like a wussy who got his butt kicked in recess.
No, I'm more concerned about the enemy believing we're wussys.
Al Beback wrote:
there are American lives at stake.
like I've said before, we lose 40,000 plus lives a year owing to auto accidents, ready to pull cars off the road?
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
No, I'm more concerned about the enemy believing we're wussys.
Has it ever ocurred to you that if you didn't go round stomping on nations / democracies / causing "collateral damage" (AKA - civillian deaths) that perhaps there wouldn't be so many enemies to confront? Or is that an oversimplification?
"Knock me down, I'll get straight back up again, I'll come back stronger than a powered up pacman" (Lilly Allen / Kaiser Chiefs)
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Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
The rest of the world simply chooses not to interfere in the sovereignty of another country. I would'nt think that *any* country would try to act as a *policeman* unless it saw some material/political gain out of it. Even the UN does not do that.
SG
SimulationofSai wrote:
The rest of the world simply chooses not to interfere in the sovereignty of another country.
This applies to Darfur? How convenient.
SimulationofSai wrote:
I would'nt think that *any* country would try to act as a *policeman* unless it saw some material/political gain out of it.
And what was the material/political gain in Bosnia? Or Lebanon?
SimulationofSai wrote:
Even the UN does not do that.
Of course not. It would be out of line with their policy of utter ineffectiveness.
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SimulationofSai wrote:
The rest of the world simply chooses not to interfere in the sovereignty of another country.
This applies to Darfur? How convenient.
SimulationofSai wrote:
I would'nt think that *any* country would try to act as a *policeman* unless it saw some material/political gain out of it.
And what was the material/political gain in Bosnia? Or Lebanon?
SimulationofSai wrote:
Even the UN does not do that.
Of course not. It would be out of line with their policy of utter ineffectiveness.
Rob Graham wrote:
This applies to Darfur? How convenient.
Sudan has rich reserves of oil and other notable minerals. Stepping in to solve the Darfur crisis will boost the image of any developed nation in the govt's of other African nations. And, thats a *lot* of material gain.
Rob Graham wrote:
And what was the material/political gain in Bosnia?
It's proximity to Russia.
Rob Graham wrote:
Of course not. It would be out of line with their policy of utter ineffectiveness.
The UN is not ineffective for no reason. The big 5 who virtually *administrate* it have effectively made it toothless and crippled it's charter.
SG
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I didn't percieve to post to be anti-American.
Anyone who espouses any view that remotely contradicts Red's is antiAmerican. He belongs to the Joseph McCarthy school of politics.
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
Tim Craig wrote:
Anyone who espouses any view that remotely contradicts Red's is antiAmerican. He belongs to the Joseph McCarthy school of politics.
That's an funny accusation to make against someone who's half-American. I must have multiple personalities disorder.
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Rob Graham wrote:
This applies to Darfur? How convenient.
Sudan has rich reserves of oil and other notable minerals. Stepping in to solve the Darfur crisis will boost the image of any developed nation in the govt's of other African nations. And, thats a *lot* of material gain.
Rob Graham wrote:
And what was the material/political gain in Bosnia?
It's proximity to Russia.
Rob Graham wrote:
Of course not. It would be out of line with their policy of utter ineffectiveness.
The UN is not ineffective for no reason. The big 5 who virtually *administrate* it have effectively made it toothless and crippled it's charter.
SG
SimulationofSai wrote:
Sudan has rich reserves of oil and other notable minerals. Stepping in to solve the Darfur crisis will boost the image of any developed nation in the govt's of other African nations. And, thats a *lot* of material gain.
So what's keeping them out? Your zeal to promulgate an
SimulationofSai wrote:
It's proximity to Russia.
So why didn't the Russians intercede there? why was it left up to Nato (and mostly the US) to stop the genocide? The UN is toothless because it is a corrupt organization. We should ask for it's removal from the United States, and resign from it altogether (which would result in its immediate demise, since we provide the majority support).
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Rob Graham wrote:
Where is the rest of the world? have they no responsibility?
"Once in Africa I lost the corkscrew and we were forced to live off food and water for weeks." - Ernest Hemingway My New Blog
Excellent. SimulationOfSai[^] hopes you enjoy their oil riches you imperialist thieves, you.
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SimulationofSai wrote:
Sudan has rich reserves of oil and other notable minerals. Stepping in to solve the Darfur crisis will boost the image of any developed nation in the govt's of other African nations. And, thats a *lot* of material gain.
So what's keeping them out? Your zeal to promulgate an
SimulationofSai wrote:
It's proximity to Russia.
So why didn't the Russians intercede there? why was it left up to Nato (and mostly the US) to stop the genocide? The UN is toothless because it is a corrupt organization. We should ask for it's removal from the United States, and resign from it altogether (which would result in its immediate demise, since we provide the majority support).
Rob Graham wrote:
So what's keeping them out?
Money? It'd cost billions of dollars to step in. Nobody has that kind of cash to spare, even if they consider the long term benefit. America steps in, acts like solving the crisis and hey, one good day, somebody will sit up and notice that there are a dozen American military bases in North Africa. But really, even if America or any other like minded country steps into a hell hole like Darfur, they will *not* succeed in solving the problem. It may simmer down due to brute military force, but will explode no matter soon. Those people are a native tribe, they don't understand round table conferences and peace deals.
Rob Graham wrote:
So why didn't the Russians intercede there? why was it left up to Nato (and mostly the US) to stop the genocide?
Ironic, considering that Russia played a very big hand in instigating the crisis.
Rob Graham wrote:
The UN is toothless because it is a corrupt organization. We should ask for it's removal from the United States, and resign from it altogether (which would result in its immediate demise, since we provide the majority support)
I'd agree on that. But i'd also say that the UN is a very effective front for America to justify it's conquests.
SG
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Tim Craig wrote:
Anyone who espouses any view that remotely contradicts Red's is antiAmerican. He belongs to the Joseph McCarthy school of politics.
That's an funny accusation to make against someone who's half-American. I must have multiple personalities disorder.
Why? You certainly show no affinity for the countrymen of your non-US half.