Don't u just hate when religious folks try to block science?
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Well said. But that is called Freedom of Speech. That is their right. Just ignore them if you don't like what thwey mean. That will be the best solution. As more and more people ignore them, one day they will be out of picture. :) Onkar
Well i would careless if they were just opposed to it, but that isn't the case they have actual power to influence public policy here in America. Recently the president who's one of them made a decision on how much funding was to go into cloning research based totaly on his religios beleif. That is what aggravates me, when they try to impose thier beliefs on others. I pay taxes too, shouldn't i be able to say i want part of my tax dollars to go into genetics research?They have great influence especially when the conservatives are in Washington.
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
realize this: religious people think of you, the same way you think of them: unwilling to accept the "obvious" truth. ("obvious" is in the eys of the aggressor) understand that, and you'll be a long ways to understanding people in general. if you refuse to accept that, be prepared for a long and difficult life. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
Image Processing - just like mom used to make.
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Well i would careless if they were just opposed to it, but that isn't the case they have actual power to influence public policy here in America. Recently the president who's one of them made a decision on how much funding was to go into cloning research based totaly on his religios beleif. That is what aggravates me, when they try to impose thier beliefs on others. I pay taxes too, shouldn't i be able to say i want part of my tax dollars to go into genetics research?They have great influence especially when the conservatives are in Washington.
Now see, the politics is the main culprit. Everywhere politicians do or support that will help them in next elections. :) Religion + Politics is a deadly combination for everyone including "Science". Relegious people are always ignorant about facts and Politicians are over smart people that capitalize on the former's beliefs. End result: We Suffer. Onkar
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realize this: religious people think of you, the same way you think of them: unwilling to accept the "obvious" truth. ("obvious" is in the eys of the aggressor) understand that, and you'll be a long ways to understanding people in general. if you refuse to accept that, be prepared for a long and difficult life. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
Image Processing - just like mom used to make.
Well does it really matter what they're thinking of me?. I'm assuming u're a smart guy. Am sure when u see scientific truth u know what it is.This is not about opinions remember, we're talking about facts and what makes sense not what someone thinks for some reason.When u look at history and religion with relation to science one can come to one conclusion only. Religion has always been used irrationally to hammer science. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of fact.
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
Edd wrote: genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. How sure are you of this? We once thought that DDT would be the panacea to end insect-borne disease. Arrogant science is bad science, and making open generalizations like this is plain, bad thinking. The challenge that the religious nut-fringe gives us is to refine our thinking, dwell upon the possible consequences of our choices, and devise processes that are inherently safe before we charge ahead with the next new technology. Scientifically ignorant flakes are certainly an impediment to technical progress, but I for one am thankful for their interference. I think of them as the control rods in the nuclear reactor of scientific discovery. Without them, we might well move too quickly in the excitement of new discoveries than is truly in our own best interests. Let's Put The Fun Back In Dysfunctional! - My Darts Team T-shirt
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Well does it really matter what they're thinking of me?. I'm assuming u're a smart guy. Am sure when u see scientific truth u know what it is.This is not about opinions remember, we're talking about facts and what makes sense not what someone thinks for some reason.When u look at history and religion with relation to science one can come to one conclusion only. Religion has always been used irrationally to hammer science. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of fact.
i am not a religions person. but i have learned enough about human nature to know that there are people who can find truth in scientific fact, and for some level of detail, there are people who see the same degree of truth in religion. and for each, that is their right. trying to argue scientific "facts" against religion is pointless. religion can always fall back on the absolute trump card of "God says so". and no matter how hard you try, that cannot be disproven since it comes down to a matter of what a person beleives to be the starting point of truth. "God says so" wins every argument; because if someone believes "God says so", there's nothing you can say to prove them wrong, in their mind: truth springs from God. you can dig and dig, but "God says so" is unrefutable. or, try this: that which you say "makes sense" often does not "make sense" to those you're arguing against - you can't disprove their point of view, since they don't see from the same place you see - where you see red, they see blue. the very foundation on which you've based your "facts" is debatable to those you're arguing against. they see that you are completely wrong and misguided to believe in the absolutes of science when God can provide perfectly satisfactory answers to questions of creation, morality, spirituality, etc.. of course the answers they see might not make sense to you - but your answers don't make sense to them, regardless of any "proof" you've laid out. and, again, i'm on the side of science here, so don't bother arguing against me. but, i've learned that you're absolutely not going to sway those who find their basis of fact in religion. you are wasting your energy trying to convince true believers to turn to science for things where they can find an answer in God. i think that's a good thing. science is not perfect, because those who do it aren't perfect. like religion, science is full of human prejudice and ambition - people see a goal and use facts at hand to prove their point. there are plentiful cases of scientists injecting their own beliefs into the outcomes of their work. even worse to those who simply follow science: scienctists are constantly corrected and their theories updated. and, you'll hear: unwavering belief in science is a religion in itself. the best a person can do is to look at the evidence at hand and evaluate it for himself: AKA skepticism - keeping people honest. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
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i am not a religions person. but i have learned enough about human nature to know that there are people who can find truth in scientific fact, and for some level of detail, there are people who see the same degree of truth in religion. and for each, that is their right. trying to argue scientific "facts" against religion is pointless. religion can always fall back on the absolute trump card of "God says so". and no matter how hard you try, that cannot be disproven since it comes down to a matter of what a person beleives to be the starting point of truth. "God says so" wins every argument; because if someone believes "God says so", there's nothing you can say to prove them wrong, in their mind: truth springs from God. you can dig and dig, but "God says so" is unrefutable. or, try this: that which you say "makes sense" often does not "make sense" to those you're arguing against - you can't disprove their point of view, since they don't see from the same place you see - where you see red, they see blue. the very foundation on which you've based your "facts" is debatable to those you're arguing against. they see that you are completely wrong and misguided to believe in the absolutes of science when God can provide perfectly satisfactory answers to questions of creation, morality, spirituality, etc.. of course the answers they see might not make sense to you - but your answers don't make sense to them, regardless of any "proof" you've laid out. and, again, i'm on the side of science here, so don't bother arguing against me. but, i've learned that you're absolutely not going to sway those who find their basis of fact in religion. you are wasting your energy trying to convince true believers to turn to science for things where they can find an answer in God. i think that's a good thing. science is not perfect, because those who do it aren't perfect. like religion, science is full of human prejudice and ambition - people see a goal and use facts at hand to prove their point. there are plentiful cases of scientists injecting their own beliefs into the outcomes of their work. even worse to those who simply follow science: scienctists are constantly corrected and their theories updated. and, you'll hear: unwavering belief in science is a religion in itself. the best a person can do is to look at the evidence at hand and evaluate it for himself: AKA skepticism - keeping people honest. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
Chris Losinger wrote: science is not perfect, because those who do it aren't perfect. like religion, science is full of human prejudice and ambition - people see a goal and use facts at hand to prove their point. Very well said Chris. :) --------
Laugh at your problems; everybody else does.
--Shog9 --
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
If I wasn't drunk I would probably understand youuuu. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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Edd wrote: genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. How sure are you of this? We once thought that DDT would be the panacea to end insect-borne disease. Arrogant science is bad science, and making open generalizations like this is plain, bad thinking. The challenge that the religious nut-fringe gives us is to refine our thinking, dwell upon the possible consequences of our choices, and devise processes that are inherently safe before we charge ahead with the next new technology. Scientifically ignorant flakes are certainly an impediment to technical progress, but I for one am thankful for their interference. I think of them as the control rods in the nuclear reactor of scientific discovery. Without them, we might well move too quickly in the excitement of new discoveries than is truly in our own best interests. Let's Put The Fun Back In Dysfunctional! - My Darts Team T-shirt
I am not sure what DDT is, but i think if u just take the time to get yourself informed u'll see that what i suggested is true. Genetics is not some misterious science (like cold fussion). It is very clear what it potentials are. It's experimental applications have already proven that. Get yourself informed, it's better that way, instead of dwelling on past broken dreams.
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
Yup it's like those states in the US where teachers are not allowed to teach Darwin's ideas. :wtf: I mean wtf is wrong with them?? Why hide what is commonly known as the truth.. and the US claims to be a country with freedom of religion.. bah.. imo, lobbies are no good for society... they try to influence laws that should be neutral. :mad:
Cheers,
Marc:beer: Click to see my *real* signature :beer:
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If I wasn't drunk I would probably understand youuuu. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Jack Handy wrote: To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. ....or the beer is half as big as it should have been...
Cheers,
Marc:beer: Click to see my *real* signature :beer:
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realize this: religious people think of you, the same way you think of them: unwilling to accept the "obvious" truth. ("obvious" is in the eys of the aggressor) understand that, and you'll be a long ways to understanding people in general. if you refuse to accept that, be prepared for a long and difficult life. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
Image Processing - just like mom used to make.
Chris Losinger wrote: religious people think of you, the same way you think of them: unwilling to accept the "obvious" truth. ("obvious" is in the eys of the aggressor) Probably right, but I hope that doesn't mean we can't argue with / criticise people who have another point of view. (Or criticise their point of view in general) The problem I've personally got with religious people or people who ring your door bell to advertise their sect, is that the large majority of these people can't gavie you a single decent argument for why they are religious. Now I can think of a few philosophical arguments for being religious, but few are the believers that can... and I can give thousands of arguments for not being religious. "Religion is opium for the people" - some great man I don't remember (Freud or something)
Cheers,
Marc:beer: Click to see my *real* signature :beer:
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Well does it really matter what they're thinking of me?. I'm assuming u're a smart guy. Am sure when u see scientific truth u know what it is.This is not about opinions remember, we're talking about facts and what makes sense not what someone thinks for some reason.When u look at history and religion with relation to science one can come to one conclusion only. Religion has always been used irrationally to hammer science. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of fact.
Edd wrote: when u see scientific truth u know what it is.This is not about opinions remember, we're talking about facts and what makes sense not what someone thinks for some reason Idealists could kill you (with arguments) for that statement :)
Cheers,
Marc:beer: Click to see my *real* signature :beer:
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I am not sure what DDT is, but i think if u just take the time to get yourself informed u'll see that what i suggested is true. Genetics is not some misterious science (like cold fussion). It is very clear what it potentials are. It's experimental applications have already proven that. Get yourself informed, it's better that way, instead of dwelling on past broken dreams.
DDT James
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i am not a religions person. but i have learned enough about human nature to know that there are people who can find truth in scientific fact, and for some level of detail, there are people who see the same degree of truth in religion. and for each, that is their right. trying to argue scientific "facts" against religion is pointless. religion can always fall back on the absolute trump card of "God says so". and no matter how hard you try, that cannot be disproven since it comes down to a matter of what a person beleives to be the starting point of truth. "God says so" wins every argument; because if someone believes "God says so", there's nothing you can say to prove them wrong, in their mind: truth springs from God. you can dig and dig, but "God says so" is unrefutable. or, try this: that which you say "makes sense" often does not "make sense" to those you're arguing against - you can't disprove their point of view, since they don't see from the same place you see - where you see red, they see blue. the very foundation on which you've based your "facts" is debatable to those you're arguing against. they see that you are completely wrong and misguided to believe in the absolutes of science when God can provide perfectly satisfactory answers to questions of creation, morality, spirituality, etc.. of course the answers they see might not make sense to you - but your answers don't make sense to them, regardless of any "proof" you've laid out. and, again, i'm on the side of science here, so don't bother arguing against me. but, i've learned that you're absolutely not going to sway those who find their basis of fact in religion. you are wasting your energy trying to convince true believers to turn to science for things where they can find an answer in God. i think that's a good thing. science is not perfect, because those who do it aren't perfect. like religion, science is full of human prejudice and ambition - people see a goal and use facts at hand to prove their point. there are plentiful cases of scientists injecting their own beliefs into the outcomes of their work. even worse to those who simply follow science: scienctists are constantly corrected and their theories updated. and, you'll hear: unwavering belief in science is a religion in itself. the best a person can do is to look at the evidence at hand and evaluate it for himself: AKA skepticism - keeping people honest. -c
Cheap oil. It's worth it!
Well said, and very true. :-D ..and thats why I think people (kids) should always have the possibility to freely choose what they want to belive in (i.e. religion / science / both / something else)
Cheers,
Marc:beer: Click to see my *real* signature :beer:
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I am not sure what DDT is, but i think if u just take the time to get yourself informed u'll see that what i suggested is true. Genetics is not some misterious science (like cold fussion). It is very clear what it potentials are. It's experimental applications have already proven that. Get yourself informed, it's better that way, instead of dwelling on past broken dreams.
Edd wrote: i think if u just take the time to get yourself informed u'll see that what i suggested is true. Genetics is not some misterious science (like cold fussion). I think you need to look at what you just said. Cold Fusion is much more understood than genetics. That understanding is what makes it scary. We are just begining the effort on understanding DNA patterns. There are many things that when first introduced seamed to be the answer to mankinds problems. Autos (ICE), Asbestos, DDT. The list goes on and on. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
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Now see, the politics is the main culprit. Everywhere politicians do or support that will help them in next elections. :) Religion + Politics is a deadly combination for everyone including "Science". Relegious people are always ignorant about facts and Politicians are over smart people that capitalize on the former's beliefs. End result: We Suffer. Onkar
Onkar Singh wrote: Relegious people are always ignorant about facts Do not confuse ignorance with moral beliefs. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
Very good point. Obviously science should be able to conjure up whatever creations they like without regard for the moral sentiments of the society those creations will be unleashed into. I agree that we should all set back like mindless, soulless puppets waiting for the next great scientific advance. Science can only do good. I think you need to read Frankenstein again... "Humans: The final chapter in the evolution of rats"
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As religiously tolarant(giving the fact that i have no religious or spiritual beleifs, i probably wouldn't have been if i had) as i am ,nothing infuriates me more than seeing these religious people hop up every time a new discovery or scientific breakthrough occurs. What amazes me most is that they don't seem to have problems with sciences that truely scare,such the splitting of the atom which was going to be used to murder tens of thousands of people, but they seem to be scared of genetics which is going to be nothing but good for man kind. I am truly sick of seeing these mostly profoundly ignorant people all over TV here in America giving us ethical lessons on what science is good and which one is bad. If it was up to these people will'll still be stuck in the dark ages since every scientific breakthrough seem to defy their god's law.
Oh the fun I have at religious arguments and debates. I prefer them to other debates because of the complete lack of evindence for the religious side, making it very dificult for them to prove their point. And they will always say stuff like "...well how do you know how the universe was formed?" and I will always say "I don't know for sure, but neither do you in that sense." :-D My main argument falls down to "Existance is not proof of the method of creation." A recent debate brought forward the point of "If the Romans and Greeks believed in their Gods, why were they wrong and you are right?" The matter put short is that Religion was fabricated by people who did not understand their world and tried to find a way to explain it. It is human nature for us to try to know everything If we were to take a bomb, or a computer back to 300BC, we would probably be seen as wizards. And if we could fly in great winged chariots (Boeing 747), we would be seen as gods. It is only because our knowlage has come on in leaps and bounds that we are finally seeing the truths. And religion will always be there to oppose changes that may lead to its demise. Wake up CPians..... Follow the Green Alien.... :bob:"Bob, a real Alien in a virtual world" Get your free CP wallpaper here or [Paul]
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Oh the fun I have at religious arguments and debates. I prefer them to other debates because of the complete lack of evindence for the religious side, making it very dificult for them to prove their point. And they will always say stuff like "...well how do you know how the universe was formed?" and I will always say "I don't know for sure, but neither do you in that sense." :-D My main argument falls down to "Existance is not proof of the method of creation." A recent debate brought forward the point of "If the Romans and Greeks believed in their Gods, why were they wrong and you are right?" The matter put short is that Religion was fabricated by people who did not understand their world and tried to find a way to explain it. It is human nature for us to try to know everything If we were to take a bomb, or a computer back to 300BC, we would probably be seen as wizards. And if we could fly in great winged chariots (Boeing 747), we would be seen as gods. It is only because our knowlage has come on in leaps and bounds that we are finally seeing the truths. And religion will always be there to oppose changes that may lead to its demise. Wake up CPians..... Follow the Green Alien.... :bob:"Bob, a real Alien in a virtual world" Get your free CP wallpaper here or [Paul]
Jonny Newman wrote: And religion will always be there to oppose changes that may lead to its demise. This is true of anything not just religion. Jonny Newman wrote: It is only because our knowlage has come on in leaps and bounds that we are finally seeing the truths. Truths based on what? What you wish to believe? Jonny Newman wrote: The matter put short is that Religion was fabricated by people who did not understand their world and tried to find a way to explain it. Here I really disagree. I find that many arguments along this line confuse moral right and wrong with technical. Most religions are a basis for moral beliefs. I have never found any contridictions with my religious beliefs and techical beliefs. To give an example, I do not care how GOD created the world and most religious texts do not go into sufficent detail to cause any issues with what we scientifically understand. So no conflict. If I choose to believe this so what on your part. Now one reason I do believe this is when I look at probability theory --> how unlikely the balance of nature randomly came together to allow life to exist. I choose to believe it was guided and not random. Since it was guided it is logical and probable that a GOD exists. You are fully free to not believe this. I am not your judge. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli