Source control: mandatory or not
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Personally I'd say make it mandatory, but I've had generally positive results (the exception being VSS, of course) using various source control systems (PVCS, CVS, Subversion, ClearCase). However it seemed to me that the OP was asking less about whether or not to use source control then about whether people used check in comments, and it seemed like John was tending to advocate not worrying about the comments rather than just completely dumping existing source control systems.
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
I can't imagine doing my job in any kind of sane way without source control.
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
Optional if you have a project wiht one developer, and it zips in five seconds or less. Multiple people working on the same code base? Hacking features for 2.0 during the beta phase for 1.0? Automated clean builds? Who the phuket added this line of crap? Source Control. (ok, ok, I was)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
It's definitely mandatory. It is so brain dead simple to setup and use these days I can't imagine doing anything else. Plus it makes it easier to backup the repository and do builds to make sure you aren't forgetting any files.
This blanket smells like ham
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
It's a must; even if you don't use a source control system, get yourself in the habit of making ZIP copies of your projects between changes/builds, etc... There's really no excuse NOT to use source control; you can get them free now.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
My assertion was that it's not mandatory and is in fact harmful for a small shop with just a few programmers (3 or less). A lot of this stuff has been foisted on to programmers by corporate types who are trying to turn software development into a factory process like stamping out microwave ovens. That's fine if you work in a factory but I have a small shop and we are craftsmen not assembly line workers and nearly any modern software development methodology that is the buzzword of the day simply makes no sense in a smaller craftsman software development shop. I reject agile development, I reject source control, I reject gannt charts, I reject UML diagramming, I reject a lot of things because any sane, logical examination shows them to be unnecessary overcomplication for my situation. Those are all tools to deal with mashing together a large number of programmers and trying to make them act as one entity. That's fine for what it's designed for but far too often I see people asking here about these things for their one man projects and shops and we all have to be careful to realize that one size does not in fact fit all and everyone's perspective is based on their situation that they are in. You simply can not say with any degree of accuracy that source control is always mandatory. I've been *extremely* sucessful doing what I do the way I do it and my perspective is always from the point of view of a craftsman not a cubicle jockey (not that there's anything wrong with that ;) ). If every poster here could have some sort of icon that represents the situation they are in, size of shop, type of software etc then discussions would be much more productive because you could look and balance someone's assertion with their situation and judge it appropriately.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
Absolutely mandatory - even for a one-man shop. I can't even imagine a professional developer questioning it.
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Absolutely mandatory - even for a one-man shop. I can't even imagine a professional developer questioning it.
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It's a must; even if you don't use a source control system, get yourself in the habit of making ZIP copies of your projects between changes/builds, etc... There's really no excuse NOT to use source control; you can get them free now.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTLI didn't say that I don't make snapshots, I have nifty batch files set up that make a rotating 30 zip archives of each project that I call when I make any major changes and walk away from the computer. I can restore from any point within the last decade any one of 30 backups from any given day of work. In all the years I've been programming I've needed to refer back to them exactly once. It's clean, it's simple, it never fails, something that I've observed is not the case with any source control system.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
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You don't need to imagine, see my post above yours.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
John Cardinal wrote:
see my post above yours
Just saw it. Well - good that we are not working together :)
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You don't need to imagine, see my post above yours.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
John Cardinal wrote:
You don't need to imagine, see my post above yours.
Maybe your opinion is tainted due to bad experiences, which I would understand. If you've worked with IDEs that support source control transparently, it's a breeze and it's a great way to refactor large chunks of code without the fear of not being able to compare or revert back to previous versions. That's probably the main reason most people consider it essential, even for one-person projects. For me, it's something I integrate into my project very soon after I've initiated it. It's peace of mind.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
K(arl) wrote:
Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
The only things mandatory are a compiler and linker. At my current job we use Subversion/Tortoise and I have no objection to using source control. (I've used VSS and SCCS in the past, and if they're not objectionable, I don't know what is.) But for smaller numbers of developers it's more trouble than it's worth. For one developer, laughably so. BDF
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I didn't say that I don't make snapshots, I have nifty batch files set up that make a rotating 30 zip archives of each project that I call when I make any major changes and walk away from the computer. I can restore from any point within the last decade any one of 30 backups from any given day of work. In all the years I've been programming I've needed to refer back to them exactly once. It's clean, it's simple, it never fails, something that I've observed is not the case with any source control system.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
John Cardinal wrote:
It's clean, it's simple, it never fails, something that I've observed is not the case with any source control system.
So if you want to compare a file with its previous version, you have to dig through zip files and use a tool like WinDiff to search for the one that doesn't have the latest set of changes? :omg:
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
Well, Mr Cardinal has some seriously weak arguments against having source control. I for one enjoy source control. It gives me precise control on what went in when. It also gives me benefits such as tagging and branching.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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John Cardinal wrote:
It's clean, it's simple, it never fails, something that I've observed is not the case with any source control system.
So if you want to compare a file with its previous version, you have to dig through zip files and use a tool like WinDiff to search for the one that doesn't have the latest set of changes? :omg:
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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My assertion was that it's not mandatory and is in fact harmful for a small shop with just a few programmers (3 or less). A lot of this stuff has been foisted on to programmers by corporate types who are trying to turn software development into a factory process like stamping out microwave ovens. That's fine if you work in a factory but I have a small shop and we are craftsmen not assembly line workers and nearly any modern software development methodology that is the buzzword of the day simply makes no sense in a smaller craftsman software development shop. I reject agile development, I reject source control, I reject gannt charts, I reject UML diagramming, I reject a lot of things because any sane, logical examination shows them to be unnecessary overcomplication for my situation. Those are all tools to deal with mashing together a large number of programmers and trying to make them act as one entity. That's fine for what it's designed for but far too often I see people asking here about these things for their one man projects and shops and we all have to be careful to realize that one size does not in fact fit all and everyone's perspective is based on their situation that they are in. You simply can not say with any degree of accuracy that source control is always mandatory. I've been *extremely* sucessful doing what I do the way I do it and my perspective is always from the point of view of a craftsman not a cubicle jockey (not that there's anything wrong with that ;) ). If every poster here could have some sort of icon that represents the situation they are in, size of shop, type of software etc then discussions would be much more productive because you could look and balance someone's assertion with their situation and judge it appropriately.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
Your assertions are based on the fact that the programmers in question are either lazy, or stupid, or both. Such programmers will make a mess, source control or not...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
Extremely mandatory dude! We use Rational Clearcase, that's an evolved being. At first you will hate it but when you mess something up in your code and madly search for something to save you..the option "undo checkout" is a bliss..:-O.. and you suddenly feel what you just did was not a mess but what was already there is the perfect mess, the files ".keep" are again a bliss :-O :-O. Yes,you can take the "undo-ed" content from the .keep file. It's protected all the ways, the concept of branching , reserver/unreserved check outs and the tree visualizations everything simply rock. This made me feel shame about what I was doing in my previous company...I was simply a..[^] taking manual back ups and putting the date on every line of code to know when I changed it and why I did it? Holy shit!
The Advantage in work-from-home is that... we can blame the dog -Mark Salsbery Best wishes to Rexx[^]
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Following this discussion[^] with Mr Cardinal, it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject. What do CPians think about it? Mandatory when your job is producing code or not?
K(arl) wrote:
it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject.
I think it has more to do with experiences. It is like someone hating Ford because they had a lemon once. In this case it would be more akin to someone hating all trucks because his hatchback can handle everything he needs. In the case of source control, it is a learning experience. And an extra tool. John made excellent scripts :~ though I am not sure I would ever go back, I used to do that too. One of our programmers was dead set against any kind of backups or source control. If they wanted to keep things up to date, they should ask for his source code and they should guard it. Otherwise, he gets paid to write it or rewrite it at the same wage. After he left, and I became the senior programmer, I still didn't get changes done right away, but I could at least start dropping the hints. After we got in another programmer, and after a big incident with code getting lost, the two of us managed to get things going. All in all a source control system is an extra step, extra complexity. If you don't understand it, you will hate it like Mr. Cardinal -- or in his case he probably did have some bad experiences. I do not completely rely on source control either. I trust it, but I trust backups even better. The source control server itself has a mirror, and a backup out of the building. So I do understand John's mistrust of source control. However, I learned a long time ago the advantages, and the advantages far out weigh the complexities. As long as John works at the same company, and never takes a government contract, he'll be fine, until he is not. But then the same goes for any of us, no solution is perfect, which is why there are backups. I solved the "not enough in source control to complete the build" problem that airs in the lounge every quarter or so. I keep a build environment on multiple machines (2), plus a laptop on irregular intervals, and I take a source-control image home. Since I do work from home on occasion, this gives me the ability to verify my source images.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Your assertions are based on the fact that the programmers in question are either lazy, or stupid, or both. Such programmers will make a mess, source control or not...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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K(arl) wrote:
it seems there are very contrasted opinions on the subject.
I think it has more to do with experiences. It is like someone hating Ford because they had a lemon once. In this case it would be more akin to someone hating all trucks because his hatchback can handle everything he needs. In the case of source control, it is a learning experience. And an extra tool. John made excellent scripts :~ though I am not sure I would ever go back, I used to do that too. One of our programmers was dead set against any kind of backups or source control. If they wanted to keep things up to date, they should ask for his source code and they should guard it. Otherwise, he gets paid to write it or rewrite it at the same wage. After he left, and I became the senior programmer, I still didn't get changes done right away, but I could at least start dropping the hints. After we got in another programmer, and after a big incident with code getting lost, the two of us managed to get things going. All in all a source control system is an extra step, extra complexity. If you don't understand it, you will hate it like Mr. Cardinal -- or in his case he probably did have some bad experiences. I do not completely rely on source control either. I trust it, but I trust backups even better. The source control server itself has a mirror, and a backup out of the building. So I do understand John's mistrust of source control. However, I learned a long time ago the advantages, and the advantages far out weigh the complexities. As long as John works at the same company, and never takes a government contract, he'll be fine, until he is not. But then the same goes for any of us, no solution is perfect, which is why there are backups. I solved the "not enough in source control to complete the build" problem that airs in the lounge every quarter or so. I keep a build environment on multiple machines (2), plus a laptop on irregular intervals, and I take a source-control image home. Since I do work from home on occasion, this gives me the ability to verify my source images.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
As long as John works at the same company, and never takes a government contract, he'll be fine, until he is not.
Well I'm the President if you look in the corporate docs so if I say no source control then no source control! Seriously I don't fear it or anything and I've never had a use for it and never tried it I'm only going by what I see passing across these boards monthly about VSS and others problems and the hassles of using it and my own needs which are much smaller. I've qualified, every time I've mentioned I don't like the idea of source control, with the fact that we are a very small shop and it would be meaningless but for some reason some people here are not able to understand that we don't all work in the same conditions they do.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
