Just lazy or no time?
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The 'quality' of the questions in the C++ forum has steadily gone downhill. The number of homework questions and 'I need the source code for Microsoft Excel' requests have risen quite a bit. As others have mentioned, it appears there are a lot of very junior or poorly trained programmers being dumped into projects with significant technical challenges. Chris's guidelines at the top of the forum are ignored :(.
Software Zen:
delete this;The gov (usa) agency I am at the moment working for has decided to hire interns to fill slots they are no longer allowed to fill because omb decides which positions are "contractible". Unfortunately a contractor’s markup is %100 or more (very expensive). Agency directive "hire only interns from south and central American universities". I took a call where some pathetic shmuck was playing with a c++ console app that did some number crunching run from a bat file. Wanted to know how to close the console window after running the app! Although I helped this in-dah-vidual cow-orker out, I will not do so in the future. Yes their are stupid questions... and stupid employment policies.
MrPlankton
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_Damian S_ wrote:
You could substitute the words "easier on" with "busier for"
That might be so. I can only imagine people having to go in and clean up sloppy code from not-so-talented developers.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
Paul Conrad wrote:
clean up sloppy code
That is currently my job description.... :mad:
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy The people in the lounge said I should google for the answer to a programming question but I do not know what search engine to use
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Paul Conrad wrote:
Or some HR idiot that doesn't know what kind of candidate really needs to be hired for the job...
So many of them work from outdated descriptions for certain roles it's not funny. If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation. Don't get me wrong I still code in C++ - but when you have the .Net Framework for Windows why would you use C++?
Lee Humphries wrote:
If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation.
Only if you're talking about in-house development. From an ISV's point of view: How about cross-platform development? Mono is nowhere near being commercially viable. How about application performance? Don't tell me that JIT compiles code that's just as fast (benchmarked it, it doesn't) or that hardware advances make it a non-issue (if I'm buying a machine that's 4 times as fast as my old one, why does my new software take just as long to do what I want it to?) How about legacy system support? The enterprise market still has a surprising number of Windows 2000 client bases (though dwindling & yes, .Net 2 can be installed on W2K but if the IT manager hasn't even OKed XP yet, is he really likely to want .Net spread over his aging infrastructure?). How about minimising run-time dependencies? So when software is shipped, it's not an invasive procedure to install on a target machine, the installation can be easily distributed (not everyone has T1 connectivity) & sys admins aren't tearing their hair out over additional OS components that they'd rather not have to worry about. So when something goes wrong, tech support can be confident that it's something the development team can fix, rather than guessing whether there's problems in our software or in the .net runtime. There are many business reasons for ISVs to continue to build applications in C/C++ but few to build in .Net. If fact, take a look inside the majority of 3rd party controls commercially available for .net, you'll find an awful lot of PInvoke calls. Somebody is still writing in code that compiles to native code , chances are, some of it's C++.
T-Mac-Oz
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
Michael H. Schubert wrote:
I'm curious, is this just just lazyness...
Pure and simple, with a capital L. 15 or so years ago, when the Internet did not exist in its current form, you had no choice but to do moderate to heavy research when you wanted to learn something new. Going to the library was a common occurrence. Part of the problem, too, is the quality of college instructors. They aren't lacking in intelligence per se, they are just not teaching how to learn. It seems they are creating (mid-level) assignments and fully expect the students to derive answers from the Internet.
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
For me it's often a failing that I have that I simply don't know how to construct a query. I can put in the basic object of my desire. However, when you come up with 5,632 responses and it takes you three days just to scan the first 219 of them, you tend to look for human intervention. Even when I put in qualifiers I seem to come up with totally unrelated sites or ones that appear to be asking someone else on a forum. I hesitate, sometimes, to ask questions in some forums because I *do* get a response back that has an undertone of "how can you be so ignorant?" But some people are not only helpful, they're also polite. I just wish I could be just as helpful. Lilith
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Paul Conrad wrote:
clean up sloppy code
That is currently my job description.... :mad:
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy The people in the lounge said I should google for the answer to a programming question but I do not know what search engine to use
That's a total bummer.
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For me it's often a failing that I have that I simply don't know how to construct a query. I can put in the basic object of my desire. However, when you come up with 5,632 responses and it takes you three days just to scan the first 219 of them, you tend to look for human intervention. Even when I put in qualifiers I seem to come up with totally unrelated sites or ones that appear to be asking someone else on a forum. I hesitate, sometimes, to ask questions in some forums because I *do* get a response back that has an undertone of "how can you be so ignorant?" But some people are not only helpful, they're also polite. I just wish I could be just as helpful. Lilith
I might also add that for someone for whom programming is an adjunct to her job and doesn't/can't spend day and night with her nose in the books, MSDN isn't all that helpful. It's too concise and depends heavily on one knowing everything that leads up to it. I'm an email admin who just happened to get interested in programming with an Altair 8800 in assembly. Programming for me is a hobby (of sorts) that is useful in doing my job. If I had my druthers, I'druther work in an environment where there were professional programmers who were much better than me. Forums are fine for quick and dirty. But if you really want to learn something you need to be able spend time in books or be able to do some face to face give and take with someone who knows their stuff. Lilith
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
I think it can be a combo. One think is people assume they can find the answer on the web, so don't by as many hard copy reference books. Then they get stuck and don't even know that MSDN exists, or the name of what they are looking for. Unfortunately for the most part they are just hurting themselves. Case in point, I wanted to sort some stuff, and couldn't remember the algorithm for quick sort, shortly after starting to use C++. Low and behold I ran into a section in my C++ reference manual that covers the STL, I went from needing the algorithm to using STL everywhere and saving a bunch of time. If I asked on a forum for the pseudo code for quick sort, I probably would have gotten an answer, but I'd never have known about STL.
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Personally I think the best use for programming forums is to get the correct terminology from others with more experience so you can go on to search for it in google. These days when I ask questions they tend to be after a long fruitless search and what I want to know is what the terminology is that I *should* be searching for. That's what I think programming forum users should be encouraged to do in the 21 century.
Modo vincis, modo vinceris.
True dat. Or... a lot of the development products nowadays tried to come up with catchy names or acronyms, and in so-doing make it next to impossible to do efficient and fruitful searches. Trying to find any information related to "Flash", for example, no matter what other keywords I try to narrow in on, typically results in 4 pages of porn link results before I actually get anything useful.
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Lee Humphries wrote:
If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation.
Only if you're talking about in-house development. From an ISV's point of view: How about cross-platform development? Mono is nowhere near being commercially viable. How about application performance? Don't tell me that JIT compiles code that's just as fast (benchmarked it, it doesn't) or that hardware advances make it a non-issue (if I'm buying a machine that's 4 times as fast as my old one, why does my new software take just as long to do what I want it to?) How about legacy system support? The enterprise market still has a surprising number of Windows 2000 client bases (though dwindling & yes, .Net 2 can be installed on W2K but if the IT manager hasn't even OKed XP yet, is he really likely to want .Net spread over his aging infrastructure?). How about minimising run-time dependencies? So when software is shipped, it's not an invasive procedure to install on a target machine, the installation can be easily distributed (not everyone has T1 connectivity) & sys admins aren't tearing their hair out over additional OS components that they'd rather not have to worry about. So when something goes wrong, tech support can be confident that it's something the development team can fix, rather than guessing whether there's problems in our software or in the .net runtime. There are many business reasons for ISVs to continue to build applications in C/C++ but few to build in .Net. If fact, take a look inside the majority of 3rd party controls commercially available for .net, you'll find an awful lot of PInvoke calls. Somebody is still writing in code that compiles to native code , chances are, some of it's C++.
T-Mac-Oz
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
It's those free Express laguages from MS. If you look at most of the MS documentation, they include lots of big words that are never defined in any easy to understand way. (I read about this in a blog some where, I think it was Tech Crunch, not sure.) Either way, how many copies of Visual Basic 2005 Express are there out there? Visual C#, C++, J# or the Web Developer Express? That's putting a load of tools in who's hands? Anyone. No tests, no prequalifications. Just a computer and enough time when Mom isn't payig attention.... Actually, this is funny. My neighbor downloaded the C# Express and for a while at least, he could be found welding together this robot in his back yard until like 2:15am! LOL Anyway, he had taken apart his lawn mower and stuff, to make this robot -- which he never let any of us see. His wife finally made him get another job andone day it was gone. The only time I saw anything, it looked like a 4-drawer filing cabinet with a bucket on top of the lawn mower chasis! He covered it up pretty quickly. So you see what sinister MS did to this previously well adjusted, albeit rarely employeed man! With their promises of robots that actually worked! Man, he was sure bummed out for a few months after that. He actually has a job now. Poor chap.
Shohom67
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_Damian S_ wrote:
I can't remember the last time I posted a technical a question to a forum - I might have done it once or twice, but generally will just google the answer...
Absolutely. These days I can get most stuff from searching the internet. It is probably once in a blue moon that I post a technical question on a forum.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: db4o: An Embeddable Database Engine for Object-Oriented Environments, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services ... My website
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Lee Humphries wrote:
If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation.
Only if you're talking about in-house development. From an ISV's point of view: How about cross-platform development? Mono is nowhere near being commercially viable. How about application performance? Don't tell me that JIT compiles code that's just as fast (benchmarked it, it doesn't) or that hardware advances make it a non-issue (if I'm buying a machine that's 4 times as fast as my old one, why does my new software take just as long to do what I want it to?) How about legacy system support? The enterprise market still has a surprising number of Windows 2000 client bases (though dwindling & yes, .Net 2 can be installed on W2K but if the IT manager hasn't even OKed XP yet, is he really likely to want .Net spread over his aging infrastructure?). How about minimising run-time dependencies? So when software is shipped, it's not an invasive procedure to install on a target machine, the installation can be easily distributed (not everyone has T1 connectivity) & sys admins aren't tearing their hair out over additional OS components that they'd rather not have to worry about. So when something goes wrong, tech support can be confident that it's something the development team can fix, rather than guessing whether there's problems in our software or in the .net runtime. There are many business reasons for ISVs to continue to build applications in C/C++ but few to build in .Net. If fact, take a look inside the majority of 3rd party controls commercially available for .net, you'll find an awful lot of PInvoke calls. Somebody is still writing in code that compiles to native code , chances are, some of it's C++.
T-Mac-Oz
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about cross-platform development? Mono is nowhere near being commercially viable.
Like I said - if it's a Windows O/S shop.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about application performance? Don't tell me that JIT compiles code that's just as fast (benchmarked it, it doesn't) or that hardware advances make it a non-issue (if I'm buying a machine that's 4 times as fast as my old one, why does my new software take just as long to do what I want it to?)
Nup, I'm not making that assertion. But I've already worked in what I call "good shops" where the stuff that had to really work fast went in to a library, and a small team looked after that - Guys that weren't afriad of C++, C or even Assembler. When they needed someone for that team they took them in from the other developers or occasionally hired them directly. But the kept the majority of their stuff as 'up-to-date' as possible, whatever they defined that to be.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about legacy system support? The enterprise market still has a surprising number of Windows 2000 client bases (though dwindling & yes, .Net 2 can be installed on W2K but if the IT manager hasn't even OKed XP yet, is he really likely to want .Net spread over his aging infrastructure?).
If we had (potential) customers like that we turned down the business, and I've worked in some very small markets where there wasn't much business. The simple truth is that the customer generally does not know what they actually need. Another clue is if they say "we need to update this, but you can't change the UI, because ...". Don't wait for them to finish the sentence - RUN, don't walk, to the nearest exit.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about minimising run-time dependencies? So when software is shipped, it's not an invasive procedure to install on a target machine, the installation can be easily distributed (not everyone has T1 connectivity) & sys admins aren't tearing their hair out over additional OS components that they'd rather not have to worry about. So when something goes wrong, tech support can be confident that it's something the development team can fix, rather than guessing whether there's problems in our software or in the .net runtime.
Actually that is what I like about the .Net Framework - "One DLL to rule them all" - and then any other
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T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about cross-platform development? Mono is nowhere near being commercially viable.
Like I said - if it's a Windows O/S shop.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about application performance? Don't tell me that JIT compiles code that's just as fast (benchmarked it, it doesn't) or that hardware advances make it a non-issue (if I'm buying a machine that's 4 times as fast as my old one, why does my new software take just as long to do what I want it to?)
Nup, I'm not making that assertion. But I've already worked in what I call "good shops" where the stuff that had to really work fast went in to a library, and a small team looked after that - Guys that weren't afriad of C++, C or even Assembler. When they needed someone for that team they took them in from the other developers or occasionally hired them directly. But the kept the majority of their stuff as 'up-to-date' as possible, whatever they defined that to be.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about legacy system support? The enterprise market still has a surprising number of Windows 2000 client bases (though dwindling & yes, .Net 2 can be installed on W2K but if the IT manager hasn't even OKed XP yet, is he really likely to want .Net spread over his aging infrastructure?).
If we had (potential) customers like that we turned down the business, and I've worked in some very small markets where there wasn't much business. The simple truth is that the customer generally does not know what they actually need. Another clue is if they say "we need to update this, but you can't change the UI, because ...". Don't wait for them to finish the sentence - RUN, don't walk, to the nearest exit.
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
How about minimising run-time dependencies? So when software is shipped, it's not an invasive procedure to install on a target machine, the installation can be easily distributed (not everyone has T1 connectivity) & sys admins aren't tearing their hair out over additional OS components that they'd rather not have to worry about. So when something goes wrong, tech support can be confident that it's something the development team can fix, rather than guessing whether there's problems in our software or in the .net runtime.
Actually that is what I like about the .Net Framework - "One DLL to rule them all" - and then any other
Lee Humphries wrote:
Like I said - if it's a Windows O/S shop.
And a shop that's primarily Windows but wants to expand into alternative OS markets?
Lee Humphries wrote:
So I still stand by my argument - If a C++ only coding position is being advertised in a Windows O/S shop, then it's a sign that they're stagnating.
I totally agree, but I would take it further: an anything only coding position is a bad sign. If they're not stagnating yet, they will eventually. Even .net will make way for the "next big thing" one day. Your original statement:
Lee Humphries wrote:
If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation.
wasn't so specific though & implied a completely different attitude (i.e. C++ bad!). I was just trying to illustrate that there still is (& will be for the foreseeable future) a need for C++ skills in many areas. When you need a C++ programer, you list C++ as a requirement, likely the primary requirement 'coz .net development is easily picked up but the finer & cleverer points of C++ are not (not because C++ is "bad" but because it's so immensely powerful - "with great power comes great responsibility" - Stan Lee [paraphrasing Winston Churchill]).
T-Mac-Oz
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I thought of you the other day while i was conjuring up demons and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
just call me Dutch Oven - Shog9, baffled by the term "Dunning Kruger"
INITCOMMONCONTROLSEX wrote:
I thought of you the other day while i was conjuring up demons and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Is that you Osmo? :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Lee Humphries wrote:
Like I said - if it's a Windows O/S shop.
And a shop that's primarily Windows but wants to expand into alternative OS markets?
Lee Humphries wrote:
So I still stand by my argument - If a C++ only coding position is being advertised in a Windows O/S shop, then it's a sign that they're stagnating.
I totally agree, but I would take it further: an anything only coding position is a bad sign. If they're not stagnating yet, they will eventually. Even .net will make way for the "next big thing" one day. Your original statement:
Lee Humphries wrote:
If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation.
wasn't so specific though & implied a completely different attitude (i.e. C++ bad!). I was just trying to illustrate that there still is (& will be for the foreseeable future) a need for C++ skills in many areas. When you need a C++ programer, you list C++ as a requirement, likely the primary requirement 'coz .net development is easily picked up but the finer & cleverer points of C++ are not (not because C++ is "bad" but because it's so immensely powerful - "with great power comes great responsibility" - Stan Lee [paraphrasing Winston Churchill]).
T-Mac-Oz
T-Mac-Oz wrote:
wasn't so specific though & implied a completely different attitude (i.e. C++ bad!).
That was also an implied point of mine that C++ wasn't bad. But it's being listed as a sole (language) requirement for a Windows O/S shop is a mark of something wrong. C++ is a language of its time, its quality as a language is evidenced by its continued longevity without its programmers having to suffer sniggering remarks (a la VB coders). At the moment the whole coding scenario for the Windows O/S is undergoing a massive paradigm shift, which won't be complete until VS2008 and .Net 3.5 have exited Beta and become settled down in the development community in general. Then we'll have three significant generations of coding languages/libraries/styles for Windows (urk): C++ with MFC/ATL/WTL, C# with .Net 1.1 & 2.0 and then C#, XAML, LINQ etc. with .Net 3.5 - I bet all three will continue in parallel. And of course I'm not even mentioning everything on the web side, as well as REST and SOA.
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
There's a holiday book, called the Haggadah (usually turns up around Passover) which has many allagorical stories. One of them speaks of four kinds of sons. One of them, the last, to whom a story is then related, is referred to as 'the one who lacks the wit to ask'. This can be taken in any number of ways. I've been programming, one way or another, for decades. Nonetheless, searching online for an answer is often an exercise in futility. This is particularly so (in my experience) if it's C++ and you end up in MSDN. To get that far, however, presupposes that you know what the problem's source is and how to phrase it correctly. Weren't you ever a novice?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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The 'quality' of the questions in the C++ forum has steadily gone downhill. The number of homework questions and 'I need the source code for Microsoft Excel' requests have risen quite a bit. As others have mentioned, it appears there are a lot of very junior or poorly trained programmers being dumped into projects with significant technical challenges. Chris's guidelines at the top of the forum are ignored :(.
Software Zen:
delete this;I've noticed that the "quality" of questions in most online forums goes down as my skillset rises. I wonder if there is a correlation ;)
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?