WWII....
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Christian Graus wrote: My grandparents are German. Hmmm. Not a true Aussie then :omg: Did they get bannished to Austrailia for what they did in Germany?
Martin Marvinski wrote: Not a true Aussie then Locally made from imported ingredients. Therefore a local according to current labelling laws. Martin Marvinski wrote: Did they get bannished to Austrailia for what they did in Germany? Like a lot of people who found themselves in the middle of the war through no fault of their own, they came here looking for a better life. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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Mr Morden wrote: ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Vietnam? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in WWII? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Korea? One thing you have conveniently forgotten is that soldiers from *all* sides did evil things. Not all soldiers were Audi Murphy or John Wayne, standing in a heroic pose with a perfect smile, and a beautiful woman by their side. Here is a question for you. Of all the countries in the world, which one would you rather be a POW (Prisoner of War) in? My first choise is the US!!! Look at Guantanamo Bay! The terrorists get prayer mats, the best medical attention, three meals a day, excersize, and much more. If Americans blew up any other country such as Saudi Arabia, the Americans would be beheaded.
Apples and Oranges. You are comparing conditions today to conditions 50 years which was the original topic. Bearing in mind that we in Australia mistreated Japanese POWs in WWII. We interned Australian Citizens who happened to be of German ancestry, just as the US interned its citizens who happened to be Japanese. Your own citizens had their constitutional rights violated. This means that in any time of emergency your own government can suspend your rights and treat you *any* way they want. Now to answer your question. Yes, I would prefer to be in a US POW camp, for the simple reason that the US has signed a number of international treaties that obligate it to treat prisoners well. Some of these other countries havent.
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And my first choice would be Australia. I don't think anyone is denying how the Japanese treated POW's in the war, my point was that this was ALMOST as barbarous as Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
Christian Graus wrote: And my first choice would be Australia Alrighty mate, lets feed him to the crocodiles. Whoa look at him' go. Seriously though, why Australia? Is it just because you were born there or is it because they are the most humane?
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Christian Graus wrote: And my first choice would be Australia Alrighty mate, lets feed him to the crocodiles. Whoa look at him' go. Seriously though, why Australia? Is it just because you were born there or is it because they are the most humane?
Because unlike the US, our soliders are not carried away with mindless jingoism and are therefore more likely to view a prisoner as a human being as stuck with the situation as they are. Add a better sense of humour, and I can't see why you'd want anything less. Of course, this is just getting dumb, but you asked... :-) Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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Mr Morden wrote: history is written by the victor. Amen. It's funny how we presume the good guys always won, instead of simply being able to tell us they were the good guys, by virtue of winning. Don't get me wrong, Nazism was an incredible evil, but in general, history is written by the winners. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
Very true. Every thing we see is coloured by our own set of cultural biases. Cultural bias is a very hard thing to break, from childhood we are told the right way to live, how we should treat people, manners, all that stuff. People from non-western countries are exactly the same. They are brought up with their own set of cultural biases. When it comes to a difference of opinion (on any scale) they think they are right, we think we are right. Tolerance is the art of letting the other person exist within their own culture, even if we disagree with them. All this talk of nuking, and POWs, and the like. Its all a front for intolerance as far as I'm concerned. I also think that its more prevelant at the moment because of Sep11. People like Edd, and Martin are simply directing their insecurities at a cultural group which they can use to blame for all their own, and their nations instabilities. Its always easy for a bigot to target those who are different instead of learning the fine art of tolerance.
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There were no innocent germans. You should be ashame of yourself. I'd advice you to watch quite a bit of history channel and you will be convinced. When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. I am sure they would have started having people in places like africa and asia as meat for dinner.Do u know about medical experiments of unimaginable cruelty? You try and get yourself informed before u refer to germans as innocent. I personally am still suspicious of them.
I watched a history channel at a cable TV somedays and they were giving a document about south american guerillas trained by american army brutally terorizing civilians. O those Americans, they must be bad ones if they wittingly support that. You should A-bomb them all? You shouldn't simplify so match. They were milions of germans, some of them were monsters, some served wittingly to them, others not. Sonork 100.15206;PavelK
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Very true. Every thing we see is coloured by our own set of cultural biases. Cultural bias is a very hard thing to break, from childhood we are told the right way to live, how we should treat people, manners, all that stuff. People from non-western countries are exactly the same. They are brought up with their own set of cultural biases. When it comes to a difference of opinion (on any scale) they think they are right, we think we are right. Tolerance is the art of letting the other person exist within their own culture, even if we disagree with them. All this talk of nuking, and POWs, and the like. Its all a front for intolerance as far as I'm concerned. I also think that its more prevelant at the moment because of Sep11. People like Edd, and Martin are simply directing their insecurities at a cultural group which they can use to blame for all their own, and their nations instabilities. Its always easy for a bigot to target those who are different instead of learning the fine art of tolerance.
Mr Morden wrote: Its always easy for a bigot to target those who are different instead of learning the fine art of tolerance. It's also my observation that we Aussies get fed a lot less of this stuff in our upbringing. It's more in our nature to mistrust authority instead of revelling in it. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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I don't mean to offend anyone,but i think the allies in wwII should have delayed the war for the couple months needed to finish the 'A' bomb?. I think if there was ever any nation that deserved the atomic bomb, Germany was the one. The Japanese got what they deserved,but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. People who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Thanks Edd. Unhappily they didn't so I still can reply to you. Everybody is now shouting at palestina killing an "innocent child" here and there. But nuking an entire city is oh so cool if the US does it? Shut up you ridiculous pathetic hypocritical whiner. What the US did in Japan is far beyond questionable. They tested new technology. I wonder what drives you to such a statement. Do you want to gather replies? Did some asshole with a german passport just give you a bad day? Do you really, honestly believe each and all Germans where Nazi fanatics that wanted nothing else than rule the world? This is sucha pathetic point of view - very comfortable, isn't it? P.S. This post definitely belongs to the soapbox. P.P.S. This is a post that definitely
We are ugly but we have the music Leonhard Cohen [sighist]
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Christian Graus wrote: My grandparents are German. Hmmm. Not a true Aussie then :omg: Did they get bannished to Austrailia for what they did in Germany?
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Mr Morden wrote: Its always easy for a bigot to target those who are different instead of learning the fine art of tolerance. It's also my observation that we Aussies get fed a lot less of this stuff in our upbringing. It's more in our nature to mistrust authority instead of revelling in it. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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Christian Graus wrote: But it's not the same as dropping it on a city, to see how many you can kill and the long term effects on those who live. Truman gave the Japanese a warning before we dropped the first bomb. We told them something terrible was going to happen. And anyway would it have been better for us to fight for anouther 3 years in guerilla warfare against those same women, and childern who were being prepared to fight against us? I bet you didn't know that, but the Japanese were training women and childern to fight Americans!! By dropping the bomb, we saved many more lives.
Martin Marvinski wrote: By dropping the bomb, we saved many more lives. Maybe this is even the cause that we did not have war with russia, I think people know what happens if anybody will drop any ICBMs or other nuclear weapons... Peace can be a result of fear... Olli BTW: Edd's opinion sounds a little bit like the one that the nazis had... all Germans are bad ...
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Probably now, but even us 'tolerant' Aussies have to admit to some evil conducted in our past. Dont forget the Aboriginal deaths in custody, and other historical events.
As a nation we are not without blame, there is no doubt about that. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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Martin Marvinski wrote: I bet you didn't know that, but the Japanese were training women and childern to fight Americans!! Yes, I did. Martin Marvinski wrote: By dropping the bomb, we saved many more lives. Why not drop the first in an area that would kill less people, or kill soldiers ? Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
Christian Graus wrote: Yes, I did. Are you trying to get my riled up for your amusement? So are you saying we should have gone in there and slaughtered the women and children by hand? Because thats what we would have had to do becuase they would have attacked us! I'm really begining to think that your comments are just put ons or trolls to get me to respond. Either that, or you are a overly protective parent who imagines everything in history happening to him and his family. Christian Graus wrote: Why not drop the first in an area that would kill less people, or kill soldiers ? Because then the Japanese would not understand the true effects of the weapons. Remember it took 2!, yes 2 bombs to get them to finally quit!! We understood how crazy they were because no other country even had kamakazi pilots until the Japanese came along.
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Edd wrote: When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. Ahh, they weren't anymore cruel than anyone else. Remember the Chilean dictator? Aparthid in Africa? Japanese in China? Even the Israelis treat the Palestinians as second class citizens! How racist is that? We just have to face the facts.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember the Chilean dictator? Aparthid in Africa? And in another message you wrote: Every time Americans kick a country's a** well, they always reform and become good citizens history has shown. And wasn't CIA involved with Pinochet? What were the countries that didn't apply sanctions against south african government? And do you remember who decide that mr. Saddam Hussein was a good democratic leader that could help in the fight against Iran? I'm Italian and I've deep respect to all the Americans that fight and died (with many Italian partisans) to free my country from fascism and nazism, but I think that the credit they gain with those actions can't stop the criticism against their errors. History is not all black (bad) or white (good). Only action movies work in this way, and recognize errors is a good way to avoid to made the same mistakes in the future. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Thanks Edd. Unhappily they didn't so I still can reply to you. Everybody is now shouting at palestina killing an "innocent child" here and there. But nuking an entire city is oh so cool if the US does it? Shut up you ridiculous pathetic hypocritical whiner. What the US did in Japan is far beyond questionable. They tested new technology. I wonder what drives you to such a statement. Do you want to gather replies? Did some asshole with a german passport just give you a bad day? Do you really, honestly believe each and all Germans where Nazi fanatics that wanted nothing else than rule the world? This is sucha pathetic point of view - very comfortable, isn't it? P.S. This post definitely belongs to the soapbox. P.P.S. This is a post that definitely
We are ugly but we have the music Leonhard Cohen [sighist]
peterchen wrote: What the US did in Japan is far beyond questionable. They tested new technology. I'm glad someone else can see that. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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Mr Morden wrote: with a name like Marvinski I assume you are not a true American then? My grandparents came to this country in the 1920's. People from my family served in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. I think the Marvinski name has earned the title of American.
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Christian Graus wrote: Yes, I did. Are you trying to get my riled up for your amusement? So are you saying we should have gone in there and slaughtered the women and children by hand? Because thats what we would have had to do becuase they would have attacked us! I'm really begining to think that your comments are just put ons or trolls to get me to respond. Either that, or you are a overly protective parent who imagines everything in history happening to him and his family. Christian Graus wrote: Why not drop the first in an area that would kill less people, or kill soldiers ? Because then the Japanese would not understand the true effects of the weapons. Remember it took 2!, yes 2 bombs to get them to finally quit!! We understood how crazy they were because no other country even had kamakazi pilots until the Japanese came along.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Are you trying to get my riled up for your amusement? No. this is doing wonders for my post count though :-) Martin Marvinski wrote: So are you saying we should have gone in there and slaughtered the women and children by hand? Is that what I said ? No. Martin Marvinski wrote: Either that, or you are a overly protective parent who imagines everything in history happening to him and his family. I am able to consider the correct course of events by considering the effect on all human beings involved, and their degree of blame for their situation, if that is what you mean. Martin Marvinski wrote: Because then the Japanese would not understand the true effects of the weapons. Neither did you guys, that is my core point. So you built two different bombs, dropped them on two civilian populated cities and took notes. Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember it took 2!, yes 2 bombs to get them to finally quit!! We understood how crazy they were because no other country even had kamakazi pilots until the Japanese came along. Their culture is hard to understand, but the US equally glorifies dying for your country, which IMO is the dumbest idea in the world. Either way, the fact remains had you killed some of the leaders with the first nuke, it would have been more likely that they would surrender instead of killing a bunch of people they did not know. It would also have been morally more justifiable. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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There were no innocent germans. You should be ashame of yourself. I'd advice you to watch quite a bit of history channel and you will be convinced. When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. I am sure they would have started having people in places like africa and asia as meat for dinner.Do u know about medical experiments of unimaginable cruelty? You try and get yourself informed before u refer to germans as innocent. I personally am still suspicious of them.
Edd, you really need to spend some time outside of your country, on your own. maybe meet some people you hate just by label of their passport. Or maybe you just go and shout "Kill Bush" in front of the white house, just to prove it's really easy for everybody to do something against the powers to be. Edd wrote: I personally am still suspicious of them. Good so! We will get you one day... :mad:
We are ugly but we have the music Leonhard Cohen [sighist]
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Because unlike the US, our soliders are not carried away with mindless jingoism and are therefore more likely to view a prisoner as a human being as stuck with the situation as they are. Add a better sense of humour, and I can't see why you'd want anything less. Of course, this is just getting dumb, but you asked... :-) Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
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So those people in Dresden... The farmers, the paperboys, the schoolgirls, the housewives, the Jews hiding from the Nazis, the soldier conscripted against his will, the 3 day old babies. None of them were innocent? Why because their government was bad? So that means you are guilty of corruption every time one of your government officials takes a bribe. That means you are guilty of manslaughter when government incompetence causes a death. Come on. Get real!