Rant: Microsoft: make up your mind with menus!
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Actually, not everyone dislikes the ribbon. ;) My wife has actually quit bit... err complaining about Word since she has the ribbon and that's saying something. She's still stuck in "Why can't I use WordPerfect?" -- read that as WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Personally I don't give a rat's behind about whether or not there is a ribbon or a traditional menu/toolbar -- as long as I can get to my commands with the keyboard! My carpal tunnel and tendinitis really make me hate the mouse. What really drives me crazy is all the knockoffs of the ribbon UI that don't give me keyboard access to things like the system menu <Alt+Space> or the child menu <Alt+-> in a MDI application. And my favorite -- who in there right mind would not use <Alt+F4> to close an application after living with the Windows UI for over twenty years! Microsoft even fscked this up with IE7, <Ctrl+F4> works just fine for closing a tab, why the hell do we need <Ctrl+W> as well? I can't even count the number of times my fingers have accidentally hit <Ctrl+W> instead of <Ctrl+Q>. ARRRGGGHHH! Chris, I think you just stirred the hornet's nest. ;) --Greg
Good point. At least when Microsoft moved from DOS to Windows, there was the undeniable (well, at least to most of us) benefits of moving to a GUI to justify the pain and suffering. I don't see where the ribbon adds any additional functionality or ease of use. Most of the Office newbies I've come across have at least a passing familiarity with menus and toolbars. It is a well-known interface. Not the ribbon, and there isn't a clear-cut, widely accepted benefit to making the change. I react to the ribbon the same way I would react to a change of the user interface in my car--a joystick instead of a steering wheel, levers instead of accelleration and brake pedals. What's the point? If it's clearly easier to use, I'll learn the new system. But if I have to climb a learning curve just to get the same functionality I had before, then I'm not going to go with it. In my shop, we have dropped Office for internal use in favor of OpenOffice. If Microsoft wanted to improve usability, why didn't they put the functionality of the Ribbon in task panels? (The panes that appear to the right of your document in previous versions of Office). That approach would have allowed them to retain menus for the majority who were used to them, while providing a simplified command interface for those who need hand holding. In effect, Microsoft broke the old interface to Office when it came out with the Ribbon, without providing an option to use menus instead. They violated one of the basic rules of OO programming by braking an interface that was in widespread use. Chris has a point about inconsistency. Microsoft is reverting back to DOS days, when every program had a different interface, and a new app had a steep learning curve.
David Veeneman www.veeneman.com
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I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
AIIIIIIIII x 100
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Good point. At least when Microsoft moved from DOS to Windows, there was the undeniable (well, at least to most of us) benefits of moving to a GUI to justify the pain and suffering. I don't see where the ribbon adds any additional functionality or ease of use. Most of the Office newbies I've come across have at least a passing familiarity with menus and toolbars. It is a well-known interface. Not the ribbon, and there isn't a clear-cut, widely accepted benefit to making the change. I react to the ribbon the same way I would react to a change of the user interface in my car--a joystick instead of a steering wheel, levers instead of accelleration and brake pedals. What's the point? If it's clearly easier to use, I'll learn the new system. But if I have to climb a learning curve just to get the same functionality I had before, then I'm not going to go with it. In my shop, we have dropped Office for internal use in favor of OpenOffice. If Microsoft wanted to improve usability, why didn't they put the functionality of the Ribbon in task panels? (The panes that appear to the right of your document in previous versions of Office). That approach would have allowed them to retain menus for the majority who were used to them, while providing a simplified command interface for those who need hand holding. In effect, Microsoft broke the old interface to Office when it came out with the Ribbon, without providing an option to use menus instead. They violated one of the basic rules of OO programming by braking an interface that was in widespread use. Chris has a point about inconsistency. Microsoft is reverting back to DOS days, when every program had a different interface, and a new app had a steep learning curve.
David Veeneman www.veeneman.com
Unfortunately, I think we're all in agreement here... As was mentioned earlier, the Office team functions completely independently from the rest of Microsoft. Have you noticed how concepts that actually work in Office eventually make it into the OS -- with the notable exception of Vista. Up until Office 2000, I think, each of the office apps actually used different code for their toolbars because each application team was independent. The spell checkers from each of the apps may use the same code but the UI looks and behaves differently. I have to give Apple a lot of credit for maintaining it's iron grip over the UI. IMHO, it's an elegant and consistent UI and it lives on BSD Unix. :-D If only someone would port PowerShell to BSD/Linux I'd be there in a freakin' heartbeat. --Greg
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OK, I'm a little tired and grumpy so maybe this is way out of proportion, but for the love of all things small and furry: Microsoft, PLEASE stop screwing around and making your product UIs inconsistent and hard to use. Office - menus are now ribbons. Except for the quick access menu. And the Where's Wally main menu cunningly disguised as the Office logo IE - Right hand side tucked away in the corner MSN - look closely at to the left of the minimise / maximise buttons and there it is! Sneaky devil. Everything else: To be decided on the day. At least that's how it feels. I can understand if Microsoft wants to make menus better, or easier to find, or more contextually relevant, or even simply better looking. But I don't see any of that. All I see is that every time I switch to a different Microsoft app I have to readjust my fatigued brain and try and work out the UI de jour. Seriously Microsoft. Start acting like a cohesive company and bring back the thing that got you where you are today: consistent, obvious and simple user interfaces with respect for standards and accessibility.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
For God's sake don't mention the minimise, maximise, and close toolbox. If it's brought to their attention that it is in the same place in all windows, they'll probably start shifting that all over, too. Signed: Sick to **** of not being able to find anything in MSO 2007.
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OK, I'm a little tired and grumpy so maybe this is way out of proportion, but for the love of all things small and furry: Microsoft, PLEASE stop screwing around and making your product UIs inconsistent and hard to use. Office - menus are now ribbons. Except for the quick access menu. And the Where's Wally main menu cunningly disguised as the Office logo IE - Right hand side tucked away in the corner MSN - look closely at to the left of the minimise / maximise buttons and there it is! Sneaky devil. Everything else: To be decided on the day. At least that's how it feels. I can understand if Microsoft wants to make menus better, or easier to find, or more contextually relevant, or even simply better looking. But I don't see any of that. All I see is that every time I switch to a different Microsoft app I have to readjust my fatigued brain and try and work out the UI de jour. Seriously Microsoft. Start acting like a cohesive company and bring back the thing that got you where you are today: consistent, obvious and simple user interfaces with respect for standards and accessibility.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I absolutely love the new 2007 Excel and Word interfaces. And I know I'm the only one in the world that does ... but ... oh well. The only thing I want now is a true SDI Excel. But after decades of hacking through Word and Excel tool bars ... after I took just a little time to learn where stuff is ... well ... I love the new 2007 Office interface. Sorry I can't rant with you guys on this.
g.CoderCat
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I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Good point. At least when Microsoft moved from DOS to Windows, there was the undeniable (well, at least to most of us) benefits of moving to a GUI to justify the pain and suffering. I don't see where the ribbon adds any additional functionality or ease of use. Most of the Office newbies I've come across have at least a passing familiarity with menus and toolbars. It is a well-known interface. Not the ribbon, and there isn't a clear-cut, widely accepted benefit to making the change. I react to the ribbon the same way I would react to a change of the user interface in my car--a joystick instead of a steering wheel, levers instead of accelleration and brake pedals. What's the point? If it's clearly easier to use, I'll learn the new system. But if I have to climb a learning curve just to get the same functionality I had before, then I'm not going to go with it. In my shop, we have dropped Office for internal use in favor of OpenOffice. If Microsoft wanted to improve usability, why didn't they put the functionality of the Ribbon in task panels? (The panes that appear to the right of your document in previous versions of Office). That approach would have allowed them to retain menus for the majority who were used to them, while providing a simplified command interface for those who need hand holding. In effect, Microsoft broke the old interface to Office when it came out with the Ribbon, without providing an option to use menus instead. They violated one of the basic rules of OO programming by braking an interface that was in widespread use. Chris has a point about inconsistency. Microsoft is reverting back to DOS days, when every program had a different interface, and a new app had a steep learning curve.
David Veeneman www.veeneman.com
David Veeneman wrote:
If Microsoft wanted to improve usability, why didn't they put the functionality of the Ribbon in task panels? (The panes that appear to the right of your document in previous versions of Office). That approach would have allowed them to retain menus for the majority who were used to them, while providing a simplified command interface for those who need hand holding.
because the number of sidebar panels had grown out of control and was becoming unmanageable. IIRC there was also the problem that if they kept piling more crap into them it would become necessary to rework the UI again to allow for multiples visible at once. If anyone feels like digging them up the office team blogged in detail about why they did what they did and why the existing UI had grown unworkablely large.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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I absolutely love the new 2007 Excel and Word interfaces. And I know I'm the only one in the world that does ... but ... oh well. The only thing I want now is a true SDI Excel. But after decades of hacking through Word and Excel tool bars ... after I took just a little time to learn where stuff is ... well ... I love the new 2007 Office interface. Sorry I can't rant with you guys on this.
g.CoderCat
I've got to agree. While it took some getting used to, I like the new interface. Especially in Outlook, where I no longer have to surf all over the screen to set appointment options. The private appointment toggle is now up with the other settings where it belongs, instead of hiding out down in the lower right hand corner all by itself.
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I absolutely love the new 2007 Excel and Word interfaces. And I know I'm the only one in the world that does ... but ... oh well. The only thing I want now is a true SDI Excel. But after decades of hacking through Word and Excel tool bars ... after I took just a little time to learn where stuff is ... well ... I love the new 2007 Office interface. Sorry I can't rant with you guys on this.
g.CoderCat
While I do like the new UI in Office 2007, I understand the post to be more about inconsistency of UI between their products. The new UI is nice but it would be good if it were implementing in all the products not just one. There was a day when the idea of a common functionality in applications where key, the focus was to have the same type basic menus for all applications so a person could count on that UI most all Windows software. For example, the File/Edit/Help menus that have been in most software since the early days of Windows. Now those menus do not exist by default in IE or MS Office. Just trying to find the "About" option can be some work ;)
Rocky <>< Blog Post: MVC for ASP.NET! Tech Blog Post: Cheap Biofuels and Synthetics coming soon?
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While I do like the new UI in Office 2007, I understand the post to be more about inconsistency of UI between their products. The new UI is nice but it would be good if it were implementing in all the products not just one. There was a day when the idea of a common functionality in applications where key, the focus was to have the same type basic menus for all applications so a person could count on that UI most all Windows software. For example, the File/Edit/Help menus that have been in most software since the early days of Windows. Now those menus do not exist by default in IE or MS Office. Just trying to find the "About" option can be some work ;)
Rocky <>< Blog Post: MVC for ASP.NET! Tech Blog Post: Cheap Biofuels and Synthetics coming soon?
RE: File/Edit/Help - yes ... that's a bit of an issue ... however, the "finger/tactile menus" are quite similar. I can do my usual automatic Alt-F-Alt-S or Alt-E-Alt-E etcetera ... and most of the time get the 90% of what I want to do. The big 2007 Word and Excel deals for me: 1) Alt-F "Start" (kind of like the Start button on the desktop) menu which to me would seem to be really helpful for beginners to Word/Excel. But I love it too since it is far more than a “simple menu” click. It has a far more sophisticated selection mechanism and acts as much like a dialog box as a menu. 2) "Quick Access tool bar", that ,when customized to your 90% functions, allows you to minimize the ribbon and concentrate on the document and nothing but the document. 3) Ability to “pin” a document to “recent documents”. I no longer have to manage shortcuts on my desktop. I simply call up Excel or Word … and click on my most used “pinned” document. RE: inconsistency of UI between products: - Regarding Outlook and its role in the business culture … exchange server etc … well I’m pretty sure the MSO design team had very little latitude to change its look and feel. Besides, Outlook is such a bundle of about three or four APPS and more often than not sits on a 2nd monitor as a kind of communication / appointment dashboard. I’m not sure about Power-Point / VISIO (don’t use them) … but again that is a fairly specialized audience with long history of “how it is” and the “way it should be” … similar to the many graphics software packages. I’m not sure it’s true these days that all APPS from a company should have a similar look and feel. In fact, that was the intention of the old interface … toolbars that one could turn on/off or arrange inside or outside the content window as one wanted. IE: a single “toolbar” metaphor that would fit all applications. Boy I spent a lot of time managing my toolbars … and often forgetting where I put something anyway. For some APPS that metaphor is appropriate. I never found it really worked for me in Word or Excel … too much hunting for the right tool bar or menu. The ribbon allows me to simply click a category (all listed), and then the appropriate subsection. The ribbon is also very sophisticated in shrinking and/or expanding it's presentation of commands. The one thing that should be fairly consistent though, is the keystroke command interface. And for 2007 Excel and Word and Outlook … my fingers find it much the same as before.
g.CoderCat
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OK, I'm a little tired and grumpy so maybe this is way out of proportion, but for the love of all things small and furry: Microsoft, PLEASE stop screwing around and making your product UIs inconsistent and hard to use. Office - menus are now ribbons. Except for the quick access menu. And the Where's Wally main menu cunningly disguised as the Office logo IE - Right hand side tucked away in the corner MSN - look closely at to the left of the minimise / maximise buttons and there it is! Sneaky devil. Everything else: To be decided on the day. At least that's how it feels. I can understand if Microsoft wants to make menus better, or easier to find, or more contextually relevant, or even simply better looking. But I don't see any of that. All I see is that every time I switch to a different Microsoft app I have to readjust my fatigued brain and try and work out the UI de jour. Seriously Microsoft. Start acting like a cohesive company and bring back the thing that got you where you are today: consistent, obvious and simple user interfaces with respect for standards and accessibility.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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RE: File/Edit/Help - yes ... that's a bit of an issue ... however, the "finger/tactile menus" are quite similar. I can do my usual automatic Alt-F-Alt-S or Alt-E-Alt-E etcetera ... and most of the time get the 90% of what I want to do. The big 2007 Word and Excel deals for me: 1) Alt-F "Start" (kind of like the Start button on the desktop) menu which to me would seem to be really helpful for beginners to Word/Excel. But I love it too since it is far more than a “simple menu” click. It has a far more sophisticated selection mechanism and acts as much like a dialog box as a menu. 2) "Quick Access tool bar", that ,when customized to your 90% functions, allows you to minimize the ribbon and concentrate on the document and nothing but the document. 3) Ability to “pin” a document to “recent documents”. I no longer have to manage shortcuts on my desktop. I simply call up Excel or Word … and click on my most used “pinned” document. RE: inconsistency of UI between products: - Regarding Outlook and its role in the business culture … exchange server etc … well I’m pretty sure the MSO design team had very little latitude to change its look and feel. Besides, Outlook is such a bundle of about three or four APPS and more often than not sits on a 2nd monitor as a kind of communication / appointment dashboard. I’m not sure about Power-Point / VISIO (don’t use them) … but again that is a fairly specialized audience with long history of “how it is” and the “way it should be” … similar to the many graphics software packages. I’m not sure it’s true these days that all APPS from a company should have a similar look and feel. In fact, that was the intention of the old interface … toolbars that one could turn on/off or arrange inside or outside the content window as one wanted. IE: a single “toolbar” metaphor that would fit all applications. Boy I spent a lot of time managing my toolbars … and often forgetting where I put something anyway. For some APPS that metaphor is appropriate. I never found it really worked for me in Word or Excel … too much hunting for the right tool bar or menu. The ribbon allows me to simply click a category (all listed), and then the appropriate subsection. The ribbon is also very sophisticated in shrinking and/or expanding it's presentation of commands. The one thing that should be fairly consistent though, is the keystroke command interface. And for 2007 Excel and Word and Outlook … my fingers find it much the same as before.
g.CoderCat
g.CoderCat wrote:
- Regarding Outlook and its role in the business culture … exchange server etc … well I’m pretty sure the MSO design team had very little latitude to change its look and feel. Besides, Outlook is such a bundle of about three or four APPS and more often than not sits on a 2nd monitor as a kind of communication / appointment dashboard. I’m not sure about Power-Point / VISIO (don’t use them) … but again that is a fairly specialized audience with long history of “how it is” and the “way it should be” … similar to the many graphics software packages.
With all three of these apps on the MS Office blogs last year it was stated that they weren't converted in O07 due to time constraints, but would be sporting the ribbon in the next release.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
was that the right number of 'A'´s ?
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
They need to do something. I think it's good that they are playing around with the UI trying to make it better. And one day when they do find the s*it, they will make all their application look and behave the same way. Until the next reshuffle. in the mean time, it really does suck.
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OK, I'm a little tired and grumpy so maybe this is way out of proportion, but for the love of all things small and furry: Microsoft, PLEASE stop screwing around and making your product UIs inconsistent and hard to use. Office - menus are now ribbons. Except for the quick access menu. And the Where's Wally main menu cunningly disguised as the Office logo IE - Right hand side tucked away in the corner MSN - look closely at to the left of the minimise / maximise buttons and there it is! Sneaky devil. Everything else: To be decided on the day. At least that's how it feels. I can understand if Microsoft wants to make menus better, or easier to find, or more contextually relevant, or even simply better looking. But I don't see any of that. All I see is that every time I switch to a different Microsoft app I have to readjust my fatigued brain and try and work out the UI de jour. Seriously Microsoft. Start acting like a cohesive company and bring back the thing that got you where you are today: consistent, obvious and simple user interfaces with respect for standards and accessibility.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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I second this. All in favour, please say "Aiiiiiii"
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
aiiiiiiiiiii
ROFLOLMFAO
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That's so true, and I can't even switch back to the UI from before in Word. :(
ROFLOLMFAO
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You must be talking about Office 2007 and Vista...I'm still on XP and Office 2003 which still sort of feel a little new to me. I would have stayed with Windows 2000/Office2000 if it wasn't for them making later versions of DX9 not run on Win 2K, which there was no good reason for except to force me into XP. Really though, Windows hasn't improved any since 2000...just window dressing and eye candy which I don't need. If they really want to make headway in the market, they should get rid of the whole 'Client Access License' thing from their server products...that was the beginning of their downturn and when the market started working against them...too greedy. They should just Edit-->Undo Vista :)
I second that! 5 for that last comment…
ROFLOLMFAO
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David Veeneman wrote:
If Microsoft wanted to improve usability, why didn't they put the functionality of the Ribbon in task panels? (The panes that appear to the right of your document in previous versions of Office). That approach would have allowed them to retain menus for the majority who were used to them, while providing a simplified command interface for those who need hand holding.
because the number of sidebar panels had grown out of control and was becoming unmanageable. IIRC there was also the problem that if they kept piling more crap into them it would become necessary to rework the UI again to allow for multiples visible at once. If anyone feels like digging them up the office team blogged in detail about why they did what they did and why the existing UI had grown unworkablely large.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
well, just to add a bit more sauce to this debate, if you've ever seen 3DS Max and the million buttons it presents you with and having spent years learning them all, then to suddenly change them for a fashion statement would generate a lot of ire as well. Individuals and companies put a considerable amount of time & energy (which translates to money) into knowledge of a user interface...it's not something to trifle with on a whim.