Quick Poll
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I live here in the Pacific Northwest about 30 miles south of 'Microsponge'. IT here encompasses programmers, developers, sys-admin, database admin, security specialists, etc. If you don't have a piece of paper with BS written on it then you ain't s**t. I'm 44 years old and I have over 20 years real life work experience in the computer industry and it don't mean squat cause I don't have my degree yet.(which I'm working on now)
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I have a computer science degree. The problem I see with developers that don't have formal training is that many of them don't have the building block knowledge to develop good code. Many of them are just searching for 1 of the thousands of different ways to solve a problem, and don't worry whether it's a good solution or not. (Keep in mind this is my experience at my job, we have a lot of older developers). Concepts such as OO and database design are not well understood at my current job. We have a lot of mainframe programmers coding cobol, but using OO compilers. LOL.
I know what you mean. That's kind of the VB mentality. And I used to be primarily VB. But I took a job in Japan that was purely Java (right about the time .Net beta 1 was released). Working in Java did a lot for my design concepts. Java developers have generally been far above the rest in design, primarily I believe because the Java framework was never as polished as what Microsoft tends to produce. So Java developers, I think, have to do a lot more to support their own stuff. Which is conducive to finding better ways to design. But there is something that few have tried to quantize, that you touched on... Older programmers tend to be set in their ways, and coming from the time before OO, that's not a good thing. At the same time, I see a lot of people that come straight out of school, that are some of the worst programmers.
jchigg2000 wrote:
Concepts such as OO and database design are not well understood at my current job
That's true of LOT of organizations. Even working with some people that are decent programmers, some take for granted that they are competent at data modeling when they really aren't.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I am self taught though did do some formal (non IT) training as a youngster and am half way though a degree (for pleasure). I have never found the lack of a degree held me back in any way: in 20 years I've never been out of work unless I chose to be. There is also certainly a degree of (undeserved) snobbery (pardon the pun) amongst those who did attend uni: however, don't let it go to your head: I've met just as many dullards with a degree as wide-boys without. Bottom line: a degree, of itself, will not make you good at your job. On the other hand the lack of one does not, by default, make you bad at it. Right now I'm sitting next to a guy with a first in computer science something or other who can barely tie his shoe laces and we're forever having to 'update' his code. Go figure.
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A lot of persons in the business application domain insist that formal education in computer science is not necessary. However, I am not one of them. CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayIn most cases I'd agree. But I like to think that I'm the exception to the rule. While working for Compaq, I learned a lot but it was no thanks to them. Everything I learned I had to teach myself. If you've ever called tech support, you know how true that is. We had so many resources available, most of which were neglected. I soaked up everything I could get my hands on, and that mentality stuck with me through a decade of programming experience. I have a huge library of old books that I need to get rid of some day. I'm probably more well read on field related information than most kids coming out of school. But looking back, I was probably not as proficient as I could have been with formal training.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a CS degree, which in all honesty doesn't mean shit. I have learned way more from on the job training, mentors, and plain hard work. Don't get me wrong; a good foundation in mathematics, physics, and computer science (data structures, etc...) is fundamentally important but it is not everything. So you know how to write a console app in C++...big deal. What CS doesn't teach you is how to write a real world application with UI and everthing in C++. This is where learning on your own comes into play. Another point I would like to make to anyone listening. You were either born with the passion for programming or you were not. IMHO, it is not a learned concept. --> jumps off 2 story soap box :) -- Steve -- modified at 12:11 Monday 29th October, 2007
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I am self taught though did do some formal (non IT) training as a youngster and am half way though a degree (for pleasure). I have never found the lack of a degree held me back in any way: in 20 years I've never been out of work unless I chose to be. There is also certainly a degree of (undeserved) snobbery (pardon the pun) amongst those who did attend uni: however, don't let it go to your head: I've met just as many dullards with a degree as wide-boys without. Bottom line: a degree, of itself, will not make you good at your job. On the other hand the lack of one does not, by default, make you bad at it. Right now I'm sitting next to a guy with a first in computer science something or other who can barely tie his shoe laces and we're forever having to 'update' his code. Go figure.
Nice to hear I'm not alone. I'd kind of like to go back to school, but it's not really feasible when you have a full time job, contract work on the side and a 2 year old to feed. Honestly the only time I've regretted not finished a degree was when I needed a work visa in Japan.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
A Level computing, and a Computer Science degree, here
-- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
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I have a CS degree, which in all honesty doesn't mean shit. I have learned way more from on the job training, mentors, and plain hard work. Don't get me wrong; a good foundation in mathematics, physics, and computer science (data structures, etc...) is fundamentally important but it is not everything. So you know how to write a console app in C++...big deal. What CS doesn't teach you is how to write a real world application with UI and everthing in C++. This is where learning on your own comes into play. Another point I would like to make to anyone listening. You were either born with the passion for programming or you were not. IMHO, it is not a learned concept. --> jumps off 2 story soap box :) -- Steve -- modified at 12:11 Monday 29th October, 2007
S Smerk wrote:
You were either born with the passion for programming or you were not. IMHO, it is not a learned concept.
I'll drink to that. I know some people that got into the field because it was supposedly where the money was. They are the worst to deal with (clean up after). They are also the ones that do a crap job on contracts, they don't tend to stick around to make sure their stuff holds up to the job it was intended. Which usually means contracts for me, but I'd much rather build from scratch than clean up somebody else's mess.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
No college, no formal education. I think any time you have an opportunity to learn, it's a great thing to take advantage of (especially if Mom & Dad will foot the bill). A college degree of any level is only going to give you more to draw on. However, in my two decades of programming I haven't really felt the absence of formal education, and I believe this is for two reasons. First, though a grounding in the basics of algorithms and problem solving transcends technologies, the ability to learn on your own with nothing more than a good book and a cup of coffee to guide you is even more important given the rate of change in our industry. Those are skills I developed via self education. More important is the fact a huge amount of benefits garnered through a formal education are lost in the average software shop because of the extremely poor way most companies manage their projects. To be perfectly blunt, the star developer on the block is rarely the one who can quote you pages and pages out of a textbook on how things should be done. It's the guy who can meet the ridiculous, capricious, marketing driven deadlines. And you don't need a college degree for that. Just a good espresso machine, and the capacity to endure long term sleep deprivation. That works out nicely for me since it creates opportunities to write books making fun of all those software shops, but of course that's another story. :-D
Christopher Duncan Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalUSA.com
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a BS degree in EE and a BS degree in CS although I can say that at least 80% of my IT knowledge was learned in the 10.5 years I have been on the job.
BoneSoft wrote:
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you? Well after getting me the job the second biggest thing my degrees do for me is they help when I get promoted. I mean in our company I would not be able to be a Systems Analyst / Programmer IV (basically the highest level) without the degrees and 5 years of experience.
John
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S Smerk wrote:
You were either born with the passion for programming or you were not. IMHO, it is not a learned concept.
I'll drink to that. I know some people that got into the field because it was supposedly where the money was. They are the worst to deal with (clean up after). They are also the ones that do a crap job on contracts, they don't tend to stick around to make sure their stuff holds up to the job it was intended. Which usually means contracts for me, but I'd much rather build from scratch than clean up somebody else's mess.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I hear you. I clean up around 30% of the time and then write/design new stuff the rest of the time. Every now then I have to deal with some real knuckle heads.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I am self taught though did do some formal (non IT) training as a youngster and am half way though a degree (for pleasure). I have never found the lack of a degree held me back in any way: in 20 years I've never been out of work unless I chose to be. There is also certainly a degree of (undeserved) snobbery (pardon the pun) amongst those who did attend uni: however, don't let it go to your head: I've met just as many dullards with a degree as wide-boys without. Bottom line: a degree, of itself, will not make you good at your job. On the other hand the lack of one does not, by default, make you bad at it. Right now I'm sitting next to a guy with a first in computer science something or other who can barely tie his shoe laces and we're forever having to 'update' his code. Go figure.
Agree, but there is a HELL of a lot of theoretical stuff you learn through a formal educaiton that you never learn on the job. And that knowledge can help a hell of a lot when it comes to umderstanding why someone else did it that way. Lilke someone at Microsoft and trying to work out just why they did it a certain way. Dont forget, what THEY kown, is what YOU know if you take formal educaiton. And it helps. (BTW I have a masters)
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Nice to hear I'm not alone. I'd kind of like to go back to school, but it's not really feasible when you have a full time job, contract work on the side and a 2 year old to feed. Honestly the only time I've regretted not finished a degree was when I needed a work visa in Japan.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I'm doing it through the Open University[^]. I've found it very time consuming but satisfying though I do take breaks as family life and business get in the way. I've not once found that the lack of a degree held me back either working in the UK or the US. Anyway, good luck with yoru juggling: I'm lucky in that my kids are now all growed up and ready to fly the coop. Happy days: it's given me a desire to return to my first career. Maybe just a pipedream, though, it's been a while!
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I have a CS degree, which in all honesty doesn't mean shit. I have learned way more from on the job training, mentors, and plain hard work. Don't get me wrong; a good foundation in mathematics, physics, and computer science (data structures, etc...) is fundamentally important but it is not everything. So you know how to write a console app in C++...big deal. What CS doesn't teach you is how to write a real world application with UI and everthing in C++. This is where learning on your own comes into play. Another point I would like to make to anyone listening. You were either born with the passion for programming or you were not. IMHO, it is not a learned concept. --> jumps off 2 story soap box :) -- Steve -- modified at 12:11 Monday 29th October, 2007
Nicely put. ps What's a 'console' app? :-)
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BoneSoft wrote:
How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not.
How much formal training are you talking? And for what career in IT? I learned to program on my own in High School. I taught myself Basic and I taught Basic at the college before I graduated. Officially another instructor taught the class, but he was your stereotypical incomprehensible computer geek, no one understood anything he said, and everything he said was obvious was not. I was asked by one of the students to teach the class. So for one hour the professor taught the class and confused the students and then we had "study hall" after class where I went back over everything that was "taught" and explained it properly. I taught myself Fortran, and C, though I had classes in Pascal in college, I learned about a dozen other languages at the same time because I was bored. I dropped out of college after three semesters, I had 6 months off before I went to a votech to be certified in business computer science (accounting programming). Now I do 3D graphics and engineering, hardware interfaces, scientific computaton, massively parallel designs, etc. I have "formal" training in everything I do not use. I got a certificate primarily to show the world that I knew how to do something I already knew how to do. Eventually I plan to get a BS for the same reason, to put to paper that I already know how to do it. I have even done a masters thesis. Of course it was someone else's masters degree. He was a government lead and saw the potential in my work, so he requested my services specifically to do a job, that job was to become his masters thesis. He retyped the work I did. I made clear I was doing the work under protest, that way if anyone ever bothered to check they would find my complaints about being ordered to do his degree work. But I still had to do it. A lot of my white papers have gone on to be PhD programs for other CS professionals. I have no problems with degrees, as long as you do the work. Go for it! I will eventually also. But I have been burned pretty badly by those who take advantage of the system and have others do their work for them. So I recognize that the degree system has both good and bad. A degree on a resume is nice, but I will still want proof you know what you are talking about. We have several degreed personnel here, they have proven they earned those degrees. Until you prove you know how to do it, to me a BS or even an MS or PhD is j
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I was referring mostly to programmers, but didn't want to exclude others in IT in general. Yeah I see your point, IT pro does conjure up visions of SAs. As a physics major, we were required to take Computer Science 101, which was just a programming course. When I took it, it was all Pascal. A couple of years later they switched to C++. I wish they had switched sooner. That was a couple of years before Java 1.1 was out.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I got a degree in Engineering Physics. The first serious programming course I took was Fortran and I almost quit right then as the prof. I had was a lousy teacher, but my couselor talked me into continuing and I'm glad I did cause I hooked up with a brilliant prof. for the remainder of my classes. He was a very good mentor but an odd guy! Mike
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I'm doing it through the Open University[^]. I've found it very time consuming but satisfying though I do take breaks as family life and business get in the way. I've not once found that the lack of a degree held me back either working in the UK or the US. Anyway, good luck with yoru juggling: I'm lucky in that my kids are now all growed up and ready to fly the coop. Happy days: it's given me a desire to return to my first career. Maybe just a pipedream, though, it's been a while!
Thanks for the link, I'll look into it. In the States I have never really needed the degree, most people recognize that experience is just as important. But I've been looking for a way to go back to Japan, and a degree is still very important to most employers there.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
