Aptitude and Assessment Tests
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
Hi, Welcome to the Lounge. I wonder what size of companies you've been applying to? Large ones with HR departments maybe? If so that could be the problem, the tests these people use are often of even less relevance to the work of a developer than the degrees we all spend so much time and money on. My advice is to start small, to get an interview with actual technical people, not management or recruitment specialists. That's probably your best chance of understanding what they want and for them to understand your skills. I hope it works out :)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Hi, Welcome to the Lounge. I wonder what size of companies you've been applying to? Large ones with HR departments maybe? If so that could be the problem, the tests these people use are often of even less relevance to the work of a developer than the degrees we all spend so much time and money on. My advice is to start small, to get an interview with actual technical people, not management or recruitment specialists. That's probably your best chance of understanding what they want and for them to understand your skills. I hope it works out :)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
The companies I've been applying to over the past two months have been of varying sizes that run the gamut from big to small, usually staffing compnies like Robert Half International, Volt, TekSystems, and the like. Looks like very few companies actually go directly to potential employees, preferring to "try them out" through a staffing company for a few months before hiring them. So, when it comes to getting an interview with the technical people, its usually the staffing companies acting on their behalf. Back to the subject of the tests, a lot of the questions I missed were mainly on subject matter I've simple either never had to deal with in school, never even heard of, or simply forgotten about to a certain extent. The content was extremely similar to the exams I took in school, covering what the company believed the person should know. I understand what you say about how the questions may not actually be relevant to what needs to be done, though.
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
Welcome to the lounge. Generally from the tests I myself have attempted in the past fall into one of two categories. 1. Have no relationship with reality 2. Place you on a spectrum, testing your practical knowledge as opposed to your theoretical (science) knowledge. I wouldn't fret too much about the placement outcomes of these exams. I will not paint a pretty picture for you. This is not going to be easy. You're going to have to do the walk, knock on doors and interview again and again, then one day you'll land a job. Two essential things you need to maintain. Keep your spirits up, and practice. The more practical knowledge you have, the better your chances are. I've been where you are and I know it sucks, but you just have to keep at it until you finally get your break. Also, you might want to try your college counselor, they usually have industry connections. Best of luck :)
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance." Ali ibn Abi Talib "Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?"
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
I interview a lot being lead developer and running a small team of 5 and in my experiance apitude tests are useless; they don't match what people will be like on the job and a lot of people cheat on them using google. Programming is so large that its almost impossible to test effectively. we interview and test to peoples strengths rather than a set of standard questions.
Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]
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I interview a lot being lead developer and running a small team of 5 and in my experiance apitude tests are useless; they don't match what people will be like on the job and a lot of people cheat on them using google. Programming is so large that its almost impossible to test effectively. we interview and test to peoples strengths rather than a set of standard questions.
Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]
Frank Kerrigan wrote:
they don't match what people will be like on the job and a lot of people cheat on them using google
What if you (as the company) make you applicants to use one of your computers without internet access? No more google problem. I think technical tests are a real necessity in large companies, or you will end with a lot of "experts". I see this happening often. If I were hiring, for example, someone to develop mainly in asp.net, then I'll try (as a developper) to make an effective test, I won't ask you to remember a connection string, but I'd ask you to implement an MVC/MVP pattern for example, or something simple just to show me you have a little more knowledge than a fresh student. If the test are like MS Certifications where they qualify how many connection strings you can remember or your capacity to cheat then yeah, I agree, it is worthless. But I think smart tests can be made, just don't give this responsability to the HR dept. Modified: Of course, all this is backed up by the interviews.
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
A long time ago, probably twenty years ago at least, I talked to a chap from the National Computer Centre who had studied initial performance in aptitude tests and later career success. He found (IIRC) that the only good correlation was 'O' level English language (apologies to younger and non UK readers) and that ICL's test seemed to specifically select bad programmers!
Dave Cross
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
I did an Aptitude test for an interview once, and scored higher than the minimum for an interview, which was 80%. Although I must say, I'm glad I didn't get the job... the company was out of business within about 12 months or less. Needless to say, the high level management probably didn't need to do the tests to get their jobs! From that experience, I tend to think of the Aptitude tests as largely irrelevant, as it didn't prevent the particular company from going bust. Bear in mind though they won't be after what you have been taught in school - that you're supposed to already know. It's more they're trying to get into your brain to see how you think and solve general problems. A low score would tend to indicate that you don't think as well in the ways of the company as other people rather than 'failing' the test. The best testing for me though is to test on the specific things the job role will require - sometimes people are better at things than the academic world says. For example, I couldn't write an essay at school that would get a good grading, but usually I can put down in writing an easy to follow process or technical information. Yet going on academic results and general testing, I probably wouldn't be considered for an interview. Be patient with the job hunting though - the first one is usually the hardest one to find - then they're much easier to get as you have the experience. Although you've probably been told that umpteen million times already!
------------------------ Luke Lovegrove ------------------------
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Frank Kerrigan wrote:
they don't match what people will be like on the job and a lot of people cheat on them using google
What if you (as the company) make you applicants to use one of your computers without internet access? No more google problem. I think technical tests are a real necessity in large companies, or you will end with a lot of "experts". I see this happening often. If I were hiring, for example, someone to develop mainly in asp.net, then I'll try (as a developper) to make an effective test, I won't ask you to remember a connection string, but I'd ask you to implement an MVC/MVP pattern for example, or something simple just to show me you have a little more knowledge than a fresh student. If the test are like MS Certifications where they qualify how many connection strings you can remember or your capacity to cheat then yeah, I agree, it is worthless. But I think smart tests can be made, just don't give this responsability to the HR dept. Modified: Of course, all this is backed up by the interviews.
With our tech test you can use google, bring books and bring source code as well if you wish. If you do VB do the test in vb or even better C#. If you do web do a website or even a windows app, hell you can even do a webservice if you really want to and you can use 1.1 or 2.0 framework. We give them a spec and ask them to write a small app over a few hours and see how they get along. We're looking for a well structured application that they can show off their skills on. We have had several developers in with 10 years experiance who have sat for 2 hours and written 2 lines of code, but usually its a cluttered unstructured mess. The pass rate is sadly 1 in 20.
Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]
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With our tech test you can use google, bring books and bring source code as well if you wish. If you do VB do the test in vb or even better C#. If you do web do a website or even a windows app, hell you can even do a webservice if you really want to and you can use 1.1 or 2.0 framework. We give them a spec and ask them to write a small app over a few hours and see how they get along. We're looking for a well structured application that they can show off their skills on. We have had several developers in with 10 years experiance who have sat for 2 hours and written 2 lines of code, but usually its a cluttered unstructured mess. The pass rate is sadly 1 in 20.
Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]
Frank Kerrigan wrote:
With our tech test you can use google, bring books and bring source code as well if you wish.
Quite helpfull, you can measure the effectivity to search solutions over the internet.
Frank Kerrigan wrote:
If you do VB do the test in vb or even better C#. If you do web do a website or even a windows app, hell you can even do a webservice if you really want to and you can use 1.1 or 2.0 framework. We give them a spec and ask them to write a small app over a few hours and see how they get along. We're looking for a well structured application that they can show off their skills on.
So, you put no architectural restrictions. This means, that if the guy knows what he is doing, he has an open door to try to impress, showing with practical examples, his theorical knowledge.
Frank Kerrigan wrote:
We have had several developers in with 10 years experiance who have sat for 2 hours and written 2 lines of code, but usually its a cluttered unstructured mess. The pass rate is sadly 1 in 20.
I find this hard to beleive, not that you are lying, but you are almost all experienced developers here. 10 years experience and you are not able to show your knowledge? I wouldn't hire a 10 years professional that is not even capable of trying to do something. Btw, how many years of experience you have says almost nothing imo.
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Hello, I've been a subscriber to the Code Project newsletter and an occasional lurker on these forums for the past few months and this is my first message here. I had recently graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Software Engineering Technology from ITT Tech about two months ago and am currently on the hunt for entry level developer work, of which I've had little luck in finding it seems. Anyhoo, sometimes I'll be called in by either a prospective employer or a staffing company for an assessment test or an aptitude test to get an idea of what I know and so far the results I've seen have been mixed. The first time was an online aptitude test which I did fairly well on, but the second time was for a staffing company and the results were what I would consider to be the lower end of the spectrum whereas the average score was 10-20 points higher than mine. I'm going in again tomorrow for an interview and another set of tests with another company, and frankly, I'm nervous and a bit scared. Is it normal for an entry level person to score reasonably low on tests like this? I find it to be pretty humiliating that stuff like this makes me look like my education didn't provide what I needed to know or that I'm simply not cut out for something I haven't even been able to get my foot in the door for just two months out of school. What are your thoughts on assessment and aptitude tests like this?
Personally, I wouldn't put much value in these kinds of tests. I've only done one or two of them and nothing much came out of any of them. In my opinion, you are MUCH better off using your spare time to create your own projects, which you can then use to showcase your abilities at interviews. (Check sig for a few of mine ;) ) I landed my first job out of university because I could demonstrate a partially working C++ application that I was writing for my mom, to help her with her business. The fact that it didn't work was irrelevant - I found out after I got the job, that the boss was impressed with my motivation and he thought the application icon was the best thing he'd ever seen! The company was in the process of moving from DOS to Windows (circa 1994) and he liked the idea of someone who had a basic idea of GUI design. :rolleyes: Anyway, my advice is to read the local classified ads (I got my current job from Craigs List[^]), get an interview and demo some stuff. Once you've got a foot in the door and a year or two experience, check again...
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