Microsoft on Multithreading
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I take that as, "If you don't have to write multithreaded programs, don't." That's sound advice.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: No, Not I - A poem by Holocaust escapee, chief rabbi, and Messiah-follower Daniel Zion (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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hahhahaah, just as i said, as simple as need be, don't write a hole framework to display a button with a gradient in it. i'll send an ascii representation of my spreadsheet application ;) |__1__|__2__|__3__| here are the cells ;) haven't you been in a project where base functionality requirements are simple but the implementation of it has completely gone of scope coz the senior was sooo happy with all is generic code libs and framework modules.
I've worked on a team which developed a spreadsheet similar to Excel, soound like you're a typical hobbyist programming plodding along with simple not to over complicated programs like data entry screens.
WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath
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Even so, the sentence seems so absurd to me that I found myself baffled that it would be written at all, regardless of whatever "however" followed it. The solution to multithreading being complicated, IMO, is to make multithreading easier, not shying away from it entirely!
{o,o}.oO( Did somebody say “mouse”? ) |)””’) -”-”-
Some problems are inherently complicated - if not strictly bounded, concurrency is one of those. If you can bound your concurrency to 'the set of concurrent processes that do not share state' (e.g. like Erlang does), then concurrency is a lot easier. However, multiple threads with shared state and multiple locks? That's going to have defectsw you never even realised could happen.
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Surprised? You shouldn't be. Microsoft exists to serve VB programmers. And for the record, i don't mean programmers who use VB - i mean folks that, were it not for the *ahem* ultra-forgiving-rely-on-3rd-party-components-for-anything-even-mildly-difficult existence of VB and kin, would not be able to call themselves programmers. That's why 99% of applications out there will hang their UIs while doing any sort of computation, even though we've been using a threading-friendly platform for well over a decade now. That's why when, upon encountering a grid control in an application, it's a coin flip as to whether or not it will support even the most basic operations such as sorting and keyboard navigation. Of course you should avoid multithreaded solutions when you don't need them. And you should avoid using a scalpel to trim your finger nails. You also should avoid stating the obvious except when speaking to VB programmers and the mentally-handicapped. :rolleyes: ;)
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...the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more...
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A poor quote; perhaps should have been 'Keep it simple, stupid' and not directed at threading. I don't see this as an attack on non-VBers and I don't get the constant sniping at VBers, either. It's just another tool: get over it.
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I've worked on a team which developed a spreadsheet similar to Excel, soound like you're a typical hobbyist programming plodding along with simple not to over complicated programs like data entry screens.
WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath
depends on you're definition of an hobbyist, been working commercial wise for 26 years now. but he who am i. the problem is that I've had to work with to many coworkers that make judgement on stuff without really knowing what there judging on. assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
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A poor quote; perhaps should have been 'Keep it simple, stupid' and not directed at threading. I don't see this as an attack on non-VBers and I don't get the constant sniping at VBers, either. It's just another tool: get over it.
digital man wrote:
A poor quote; perhaps should have been 'Keep it simple, stupid' and not directed at threading. I don't see this as an attack on non-VBers and I don't get the constant sniping at VBers, either. It's just another tool: get over it.
Thats correct VB is a tool while the others are Programming Languages ;P
codito ergo sum
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logan1337 wrote:
"Because multithreaded programs are complex and difficult to debug, they should be avoided when single-threaded solutions exist."
I suspect that technically there is always a single threaded solution. The problem is that the end user may not like the "solution" since in many cases the UI would become unresponsive. Writing multithreaded applications can be hard and in my humble opinion many "programmers" haven't really understood the basics of it and that causes troubles in terms of applications that hang and so on. I consider multithreading a powerful tool in the programmer's toolbox, but I've also experienced that people doesn't know how to use the tools in the toolbox even if they refer to themselves as programmers. If I need a carpenter and it turns out he doesn't know how to use a screwdriver, I wouldn't trust him to build my house/bookshelf/whatever even if he calls himself a carpenter. On no way is this a malfunction of the screwdriver. All kind of screwdrivers are available on the market and anyone can buy them, but the know-how of how to use the screwdriver isn't included in the purchase of the tool. If the screwdriver manufacturer published a proclamation that said "screwdrivers may damage the head of the screws, use our hammer instead if possible", I would certainly doubt any carpenter that claimed this proclamation to be a good advice since I would conclude that he apparently doesn't know how to use a screwdriver. Of course it's always technically possible to use a hammer instead of a screwdriver, but that would cause unwanted side effects that are obvious to skilled carpenters.
"It's supposed to be hard, otherwise anybody could do it!" - selfquote
"High speed never compensates for wrong direction!" - unknown -
digital man wrote:
A poor quote; perhaps should have been 'Keep it simple, stupid' and not directed at threading. I don't see this as an attack on non-VBers and I don't get the constant sniping at VBers, either. It's just another tool: get over it.
Thats correct VB is a tool while the others are Programming Languages ;P
codito ergo sum
What's really sad is you probably believe that.
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depends on you're definition of an hobbyist, been working commercial wise for 26 years now. but he who am i. the problem is that I've had to work with to many coworkers that make judgement on stuff without really knowing what there judging on. assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
marcotje wrote:
coworkers that make judgement on stuff without really knowing what there judging on
In the VB area, people get into computing without any formal training hence you get this situation which you are describing. Yes I remember walking into a airport with 10+ comms experience and meeting a guy who had 6 months VB user experience to tell me I had to use his sample (copied from a book using the ActiveX comms control) program base I my program mission critical comms software on. Needless to say I blew him out of the water.
WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath
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Surprised? You shouldn't be. Microsoft exists to serve VB programmers. And for the record, i don't mean programmers who use VB - i mean folks that, were it not for the *ahem* ultra-forgiving-rely-on-3rd-party-components-for-anything-even-mildly-difficult existence of VB and kin, would not be able to call themselves programmers. That's why 99% of applications out there will hang their UIs while doing any sort of computation, even though we've been using a threading-friendly platform for well over a decade now. That's why when, upon encountering a grid control in an application, it's a coin flip as to whether or not it will support even the most basic operations such as sorting and keyboard navigation. Of course you should avoid multithreaded solutions when you don't need them. And you should avoid using a scalpel to trim your finger nails. You also should avoid stating the obvious except when speaking to VB programmers and the mentally-handicapped. :rolleyes: ;)
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...the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more...
Shog9, When is your own OS being launched. One of your next project might be coding a whole new planet maybe.
Developer Fantasies
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depends on you're definition of an hobbyist, been working commercial wise for 26 years now. but he who am i. the problem is that I've had to work with to many coworkers that make judgement on stuff without really knowing what there judging on. assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
I just realized why some people seem like aholes when posting. There seems to be so many of them. I was beginning to think that coders are mostly aholes. When you are behind a nickname it is easier to say what you think. At the same time, think of this world where this is practiced in real life too. From the language and expressions on this forum we would kill each other off. This is where hypocrisy comes in and saves the day when you politely tell your coworker: "I see your point, but maybe it would be better if...". Thank god for hypocrisy! :D
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marcotje wrote:
coworkers that make judgement on stuff without really knowing what there judging on
In the VB area, people get into computing without any formal training hence you get this situation which you are describing. Yes I remember walking into a airport with 10+ comms experience and meeting a guy who had 6 months VB user experience to tell me I had to use his sample (copied from a book using the ActiveX comms control) program base I my program mission critical comms software on. Needless to say I blew him out of the water.
WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath
norm .net wrote:
his sample (copied from a book using the ActiveX comms control) program base I my program mission critical comms software on.
Didn't you like it? It took me ages to write that, and it was touch and go until I discovered that you could write
On Error Resume Nextin Visual basic to make the crashes go away."On one of my cards it said I had to find temperatures lower than -8. The numbers I uncovered were -6 and -7 so I thought I had won, and so did the woman in the shop. But when she scanned the card the machine said I hadn't. "I phoned Camelot and they fobbed me off with some story that -6 is higher - not lower - than -8 but I'm not having it." -Tina Farrell, a 23 year old thicky from Levenshulme, Manchester.
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norm .net wrote:
his sample (copied from a book using the ActiveX comms control) program base I my program mission critical comms software on.
Didn't you like it? It took me ages to write that, and it was touch and go until I discovered that you could write
On Error Resume Nextin Visual basic to make the crashes go away."On one of my cards it said I had to find temperatures lower than -8. The numbers I uncovered were -6 and -7 so I thought I had won, and so did the woman in the shop. But when she scanned the card the machine said I hadn't. "I phoned Camelot and they fobbed me off with some story that -6 is higher - not lower - than -8 but I'm not having it." -Tina Farrell, a 23 year old thicky from Levenshulme, Manchester.
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WOW... so many angry VB ... programmers.. coders.. how do you call yourselves these days ? Shog... i'd be careful if i were you... maybe they'll find (not program, FIND.. on the internet) some control which will make you regret your words! :laugh: Come on guys, what's the big fuss about? VB is a toy.. never was never will be anything more than a TOY for programmer wannabes and "hackers" ... deal with it! ( or learn to program :laugh: )
A buffalo soldier, a dread-like rasta !
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I just realized why some people seem like aholes when posting. There seems to be so many of them. I was beginning to think that coders are mostly aholes. When you are behind a nickname it is easier to say what you think. At the same time, think of this world where this is practiced in real life too. From the language and expressions on this forum we would kill each other off. This is where hypocrisy comes in and saves the day when you politely tell your coworker: "I see your point, but maybe it would be better if...". Thank god for hypocrisy! :D
OK Lets not all get carried away. VB is not the best language in the world. We all know that. But it did introduce me to programming. I soon found it's limitations and my quest for knowledge lead me to c++,ruby and c#. However, vb did give me a way into a subject that I may otherwise not have been able to participate or gain emplyment in. I didn't go to University but instead have worked my way up through the development world. My day jobs have seen me hold interesting and callening positions for various companies including banks like HSBC. The projects I have worked on have not been "simple data entry" screens and the languages used have at times included vb. My spare time sees me develop code for KDE and related projects. None of which I would do had I not picked up VB. To be fair and honest I have moved away from VB now and mainly get paid for c#. But I don't think VB bashing is really fair or constructive. Does anyone bash you for your choice of clothes of car?? No back to the original post. I think developers need to realise that ignoring threading going forward with the new mutlicore chips will be a massive mistake. For too long people have looked to the hardware for speed boosts and now the resposibility for the speed boost will lay at the developers door. Those developers that do not learn to debug "hard" mutlithreaded apps will be left behind and look to have outdated skills. I for one am looking forward to learning these skills......
Oh, uh, good question. Now technically speaking, uhh, let's say, put me down as a... 'Whatever'?
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Hmm, so that is why Visual Studio works on one processor only? Sometimes I find myself imagining that maybe one of the next versions might make use of my dual core, and not make me wait for 15 minutes or more because it's too complex and difficult to spread the compilation and linkage of 5 projects onto 2 processors. Maybe that is too much to hope for :sigh: What again are multiprocessor systems good for? :rolleyes:
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Hear, hear!
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Hey its called Visual BASIC(Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. ) Its was designed as a teaching tool. It obviously works. The problems arise because its often self taught so the student learns nothing about good design and structure.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin Buddha Dave