The Joys of Hired Consultants
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Chris Meech wrote:
It is pretty frustrating.
Now there's an understatement!:laugh: A big problem we have around here, totally unrelated to my current frustration, is employees who disappear after payday and don't show up until they run out of money. It drives local contractors crazy, not to mention the toll on the sanity of their customers. A rule of thumb - never promise more than you can deliver. It's my practice to promise less, then deliver more.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
employees who disappear after payday and don't show up until they run out of money
I used to run a plant up in the North West Territories. The only way in or out was by plane. The guys I had working for me, usually showed up stinking drunk and you'd put them in their bunkhouse and let them 'come to' over a couple of days. They would then work for 13 weeks and have no place to spend any money or cash a cheque and at the end of the term, off they would go with 10K in cheques. They'd fly down to Edmonton or Calgary and proceed to booze and drug it up for several weeks and when they were out of money, they'd repeat the whole operation all over again. For most of them, it was actually pretty sad.
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Donate to help Conquer Cancer[^]
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Ah, feature creep! Don't ya just love it? Unfortunately, it's bad for business to fire customers, though I'll admit there are times when it's the best choice for all. We probably have some legal recourse, but that doesn't get the job built, does it? I'll leave the finger pointing and blame setting to the bean counters. I'm busy creating a solution. The steel hasn't been built yet - it can be modified. The concrete pad is set, but I can pour another around it to enlarge it for the breaker. Every project has its little challenges, but somehow I always convince myself that "this" one will be troublefree. Hope springs eternal...:-D
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
Unfortunately, it's bad for business to fire customers, though I'll admit there are times when it's the best choice for all.
I am a proud practitioner of the Pareto Principle. So, I have no qualms eliminating those 20% of customers who cause 80% of my issues.
Roger Wright wrote:
I'm busy creating a solution. The steel hasn't been built yet - it can be modified.
Great attitude. When I used to work in engineering far too few people understood the way you seem to. The job has to get done but many would rather wait for somebody else to fix things.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Chris Meech wrote:
It is pretty frustrating.
Now there's an understatement!:laugh: A big problem we have around here, totally unrelated to my current frustration, is employees who disappear after payday and don't show up until they run out of money. It drives local contractors crazy, not to mention the toll on the sanity of their customers. A rule of thumb - never promise more than you can deliver. It's my practice to promise less, then deliver more.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
A rule of thumb - never promise more than you can deliver. It's my practice to promise less, then deliver more.
Yes indeedy.
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?
We have a contractor working on a test station writing code to test a device. He is close to completing, so he says (I've looked at his code and he's not close), and we need to do a change on a low level system on one device (I found a problem in error handling). Since the equipment and the contractor are in a different city I e-mailed him the change, told him how to put this one in and how to get the old system back after the runs his stuff and sees if it's OK. After a couple of weeks of requests for him to test his stuff with the new system, he finially sends back an e-mail saying "it's ok" that was a reply to my original e-mail. Later, we deployed the system change and, in a meeting with management, he says I caused his code to crash and it would take him months to recover. I had his e-mail and he said by "it's ok", he meant that he would get to testing it eventually. I also, found out that he changed some of the other low level system code for various devices to suit his needs. He just neglected to tell anyone. Since he was the only one on that system at that time no one noticed. Also, once we tested other peoples code with his changes, it all crashed. I wish I could be over paid for screwing up. Instead I'm underpaid for doing a good job.
Joe Q My Blog
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Roger Wright wrote:
So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?
We have a contractor working on a test station writing code to test a device. He is close to completing, so he says (I've looked at his code and he's not close), and we need to do a change on a low level system on one device (I found a problem in error handling). Since the equipment and the contractor are in a different city I e-mailed him the change, told him how to put this one in and how to get the old system back after the runs his stuff and sees if it's OK. After a couple of weeks of requests for him to test his stuff with the new system, he finially sends back an e-mail saying "it's ok" that was a reply to my original e-mail. Later, we deployed the system change and, in a meeting with management, he says I caused his code to crash and it would take him months to recover. I had his e-mail and he said by "it's ok", he meant that he would get to testing it eventually. I also, found out that he changed some of the other low level system code for various devices to suit his needs. He just neglected to tell anyone. Since he was the only one on that system at that time no one noticed. Also, once we tested other peoples code with his changes, it all crashed. I wish I could be over paid for screwing up. Instead I'm underpaid for doing a good job.
Joe Q My Blog
Joe Q wrote:
I wish I could be over paid for screwing up. Instead I'm underpaid for doing a good job.
That should be my new signature line...
Success is the happy feeling you get between the time you do something and the time you tell a woman what you did. --Dibert My left name is Tremendous Savings, Ms. America – Señor Cardgage
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Joe Q wrote:
I wish I could be over paid for screwing up. Instead I'm underpaid for doing a good job.
That should be my new signature line...
Success is the happy feeling you get between the time you do something and the time you tell a woman what you did. --Dibert My left name is Tremendous Savings, Ms. America – Señor Cardgage
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Roger Wright wrote:
So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?
We have a contractor working on a test station writing code to test a device. He is close to completing, so he says (I've looked at his code and he's not close), and we need to do a change on a low level system on one device (I found a problem in error handling). Since the equipment and the contractor are in a different city I e-mailed him the change, told him how to put this one in and how to get the old system back after the runs his stuff and sees if it's OK. After a couple of weeks of requests for him to test his stuff with the new system, he finially sends back an e-mail saying "it's ok" that was a reply to my original e-mail. Later, we deployed the system change and, in a meeting with management, he says I caused his code to crash and it would take him months to recover. I had his e-mail and he said by "it's ok", he meant that he would get to testing it eventually. I also, found out that he changed some of the other low level system code for various devices to suit his needs. He just neglected to tell anyone. Since he was the only one on that system at that time no one noticed. Also, once we tested other peoples code with his changes, it all crashed. I wish I could be over paid for screwing up. Instead I'm underpaid for doing a good job.
Joe Q My Blog
As a software manager, I learned very quickly to trust my gut when outsourcing. If the contractor isn't responding to emails, is giving vague answers, or is just not giving you confidence, FIRE them ASAP. The cost of finding a new contractor and starting over are always cheaper than having the project go to %$*#& along with the damage to one's reputation for hiring the guy. If your gut says that the consultant isn't doing a good job, don't let hopeful thinking diswade you from firing them.
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Ah, feature creep! Don't ya just love it? Unfortunately, it's bad for business to fire customers, though I'll admit there are times when it's the best choice for all. We probably have some legal recourse, but that doesn't get the job built, does it? I'll leave the finger pointing and blame setting to the bean counters. I'm busy creating a solution. The steel hasn't been built yet - it can be modified. The concrete pad is set, but I can pour another around it to enlarge it for the breaker. Every project has its little challenges, but somehow I always convince myself that "this" one will be troublefree. Hope springs eternal...:-D
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
""So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?"" Seems like any time I'm involved with contractors (except the cement guys! Coincidence?), they do things thier way and not the way promised or expected. We nearly fired our HVAC contractor for completely disregarding the plans and installing it the way they wanted to (which didn't work). The old adage: "If you want it done right, do it yourself" seems to be alive and well.... :doh:
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It does sound like a good signature line. Actually, I would like to be overpaid for doing a good job.
Joe Q My Blog
Hey man; Bring it up with your boss at the next review. And speak to him about it in "manager-speak", use numbers, weigh your salary at cost (salary x2), versus the consultant's pay. Multiply out the hours and demonstrate how expensive the consultant was. Talk about product value and how his practices are costing you time, money and customers. And then tell him about company morale. Tell him that people in the company are suffering not only b/c of dealing with this guy, but b/c they all know that they were "underpaid for doing a good job", whilst he was "overpaid for doing a bad one". Tell him: this makes us feel like we should all just be bad consultants and work 6 months of the year for a year's worth of pay. And if you're just a little ballsy, you can pull out the big line: "I'm worth way more than that guy, but instead of throwing small amounts of good money my way, you threw large amounts of bad money his way, I think that it's time for my pay to increase by X solely on the basis of my productivity." If you don't feel comfortable saying this, then write it down and give it to him. Feel free to poach words or even sentences directly from this post. They're not going to fire you for asking for more money, especially when you box it with discussions of the bad money they've thrown away. The odd manager will be a little annoyed, but they're typically annoyed at the cost of their own mistakes (paying this other guy) so they won't really take it out on you (even if they seem non-plussed by the situation). In fact, the last point is a very good reason to write it down. Leave him with something that he can re-read, so that if he has to stew about the situation he has a reference point. If you don't ask for the money, he'll just give it to someone else or keep it for himself. :cool: Gates VP
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Professional Engineers are a "self-governed body", but they rely on the association to "get their stamps". If you can't get the company to own up and pay for its mistakes, then a brief write-up to the local association of professional engineers may be in order here. For all you know, this may be the third or fourth time that this firm has pulled this crap and the Association may just be waiting on one more complaint to drop the hammer. A good letter not only defends your interests, it protects others from having to deal with the same crap. Gates VP
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
After reading all of these posts on "The Joys of Hired Consultants" there seems to be a common thread in most of them... There was an accepted 'start of work' without having a set of firm, signed off, requirements. If all parties read and agree to the terms of the requirements and signs them, thereby accepting responsibility (meaning 'not right' = 'no pay'), I believe that things may be looked at in a little different light from both the contractor's and the company hiring the contractor's perspective. I also agree that there are a LOT of contractors who do sub par work, but then again, whose fault is that? What limitations or restrictions are imposed for shoddy or sub par or not finished work? I know when I was running construction projects, I always paid out material costs up front, then required 50% of the work completed before 50% of the 'labor' pay was given out. It always amazes me how much better people do when they know they will NOT get paid for their 'crappy' work. In addition, I always put in a clause that said, if done 10% early (again adhering to the same quality standards) there would be a 10% bonus... or some other incentive for hustling ~and~ doing a good job. And what about the contractor that just gets the job done on time, without schedule or cost overruns - they get the chance to bid on the next job. I tend to think about contracting like eating out at a restaurant- If the food was bad, I don't go back and I tell everybody about it, but I don't fault the waitress, if the food was good and the service was poor I tell the management. bad food = free meal, tip depending upon: good service = good tip bad service = no tip, tell management
wahoo
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Ah, feature creep! Don't ya just love it? Unfortunately, it's bad for business to fire customers, though I'll admit there are times when it's the best choice for all. We probably have some legal recourse, but that doesn't get the job built, does it? I'll leave the finger pointing and blame setting to the bean counters. I'm busy creating a solution. The steel hasn't been built yet - it can be modified. The concrete pad is set, but I can pour another around it to enlarge it for the breaker. Every project has its little challenges, but somehow I always convince myself that "this" one will be troublefree. Hope springs eternal...:-D
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
You're in the wrong business, Roger. When I muck up a web app release, I just go back into SourceSafe and get the source files for the last version that went kinda OK. Then I update the web site with the old version until I figure out what I did wrong. No concrete to break up and I never get my shoes dusty. :-D It's good to be a coder. :cool:
Someone's gotta be the last to know, but why is it always me?
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As a software manager, I learned very quickly to trust my gut when outsourcing. If the contractor isn't responding to emails, is giving vague answers, or is just not giving you confidence, FIRE them ASAP. The cost of finding a new contractor and starting over are always cheaper than having the project go to %$*#& along with the damage to one's reputation for hiring the guy. If your gut says that the consultant isn't doing a good job, don't let hopeful thinking diswade you from firing them.
I'm a technical lead which means I'm responsible for the technical aspects while someone else is the manager in charge of personel. The guy in charge of people kept saying "Oh he'll do OK". Translation was that the manager was to lazy to find someone else. I'm in charge technical issues he's in charge of people, schedule, and budget. Now he's going to get it in the Budget and schedule.
Joe Q My Blog
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Are implying that in general contractors are less capable than employees? I've been both an employee and a contractor in various jobs. In both scenarios I've worked with both contractors and employees. I've found that a worker is a worker. I've seen various skill and dedication levels in both contractors and employees. As a hiring manager it is your responsiblity to properly interview canidates and check their references (employee or contractor). And if you are sending work out as a fixed bid project to another company, make sure your contract covers schedules, features, deliverables, change requests, payment (including penalties and/or rewards) and anything else applicable to your project. Don't assume anything, and especially don't agree on anything with just a handshake. Putting it on paper not only keeps both parties honest, it ensures you both really understand what you are getting into.
Michael Lang (versat1474) http://www.xquisoft.com/[^]
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So, we got a contract to build 4 miles of 69kV transmission line into a neighboring town, and the powers-that-be decided that we need to hire a registered PE company to oversee the design. Great idea! The first drawings we saw were preliminary - not fit for construction - at a meeting of principals meant to be a final design review. We were promised final drawings by Monday, but the engineer never specified which Monday. That was in July, and we still haven't seen final drawings. But every drawing submitted as a final candidate has kept me busy full time just identifying and correcting errors. Wrong part numbers, mostly, but quite a few details that would have made it impossible to construct at all. We let contracts for substation steel structures and steel poles, along with concrete pads for some items. We just spent the last ten days pouring nearly 1 million pounds of concrete, finishing late Saturday and, I must say, the concrete company (Evergreen Caissons of Colorado) did an awesome job. Everything was done exactly right, as specified by the engineer. I would recommend them anytime! But this morning I received final drawings for the substation steel structures; the engineer sent the concrete company different drawings than the steel company got, and they don't match. Not by a long shot - 15' vs 6' post separations.:doh: And the $40k circuit breaker we ordered arrived this morning. Guess what doesn't match the concrete pad we spent a bunch of money pouring?:sigh: Whatever happened to drawing checks? When I did a design as an engineer I made few mistakes - my designs worked first time, almost every time. But what mistakes I made the customer never saw. I would have died of embarrassment to have a customer find an error in my work, so after I went over everything with a fine toothed comb, I had coworkers do the same before anything got released. The customer should never see your dirty laundry - ever! Next time I'll do the design myself, have my boss check it for engineering details, have the line foreman review it for buildability, then hire a consultant for one last review. No more time and money wasted on a so-called expert!:mad: So, what nightmares have you been fighting lately?:rolleyes:
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Boss says "use this tool". Boss is an illustrator and college dropout, we are college educated programmers. We say, tool is not necessary and will slow down development. Boss, says "I like this tool". We get requirements to start coding, no mention of the tool in requirements. Application is 75% completed the very expensive tool is never bought "blabbing purchasing creetons". Illustrator boss hires contractor with very speciallized skill in The Tool. Cost of contractor and tools pushes half million. Programmers on project just shut out Tool Man and play the passive resistance card, the application is completed. Now we are awaiting our punishment for project completed on time and under budget, but we are state government and in state gov spankings are light.
MrPlankton